Cycle
- Thread starter countrygirl
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irritating
This thread is irritating in that I've never seen so many solutions in search of a problem in my life. I had to sign up simply to respond.
First, I come from a background of maintaining marine and reef tanks, and due to the fact I move around so much I elected to go back to my roots keeping freshwater. I sold my salt water gear, coral frags, fish, and went back to fresh with a happy face. No offense, but maintaining a community freshwater tank is absurdy easy. Plants aside, it's about as difficult as making ice cubes. For that matter I haven't lost a fresh water fish due to water conditions for over 20 years, and rarely lose salt water fish. This is not rocket science, people.
The basic biology between a fresh water and salt water tank are pretty much the same, and the solutions are the same. The difference is that in a salt water reef we've solved the basic nitrogen cycle problem becuase thre is no tolerance for Ammo/Nitrite in a reef tank anyways. So, why this is a such a problem to solve in a freshwater tank baffles me.
I recently brought my converted 75gal fresh water tank online, and cycled the stupid thing in 12 days. Want to know how? I filled it full of plenty of rocks, used adequate powerheads to move water around, didn't mess with silly bio-wheels, and used cheap fish with high metabolic rates such as zebra danios and tinfoil barbs. 12 days - that's it. Ammonia went from being just detectable to back to zero. I could care less with nitrite is because it will follow the same course.
Which brings me to my first complaint - fishless cycling. Yeah, I've done it with salt water tanks because I get sick of chasing damsels around when the cycle is finished. First, my experience with fishless cycling is that it takes much longer than *with* fish, and next, it creates and artificial bacteria colony that have to re-adjust when actual fish are put in the next. I'd also like to ask our resident expert here if he/she is aware that nitrite reducing bacteria *will not grow* in the presence of ammonia, so it doesn't save you time in that respect.
A couple people have commented that they've never lost fish while cycling, and I can be added to that group. I've seen fresh water tanks when cycling produce ammo levels so high they'd sterilize every living thing in a salt water tank. Obviously if you're breeding discus or neons you need pristine water conditions, but what gives with this 'bacteria in a bottle' for starting to a tank? Last I checked, nitrosomas and nitrobacter required this stuff called oxygen to survive, and there ain't a whole lot of that in a plastic bottle now is there? You do realize these two bacteria basically thrive on virtually any moist and dark surface on earth? Throw a spoon full of dirt in your tank if you must.
Otherwise, by reading these threads I strongly recommend many of you re-think your filtration systems, dump the bio-wheels and HOB filters, get adequate circulation in your tanks, and find a way to export nitrate.
This thread is irritating in that I've never seen so many solutions in search of a problem in my life. I had to sign up simply to respond.
First, I come from a background of maintaining marine and reef tanks, and due to the fact I move around so much I elected to go back to my roots keeping freshwater. I sold my salt water gear, coral frags, fish, and went back to fresh with a happy face. No offense, but maintaining a community freshwater tank is absurdy easy. Plants aside, it's about as difficult as making ice cubes. For that matter I haven't lost a fresh water fish due to water conditions for over 20 years, and rarely lose salt water fish. This is not rocket science, people.
The basic biology between a fresh water and salt water tank are pretty much the same, and the solutions are the same. The difference is that in a salt water reef we've solved the basic nitrogen cycle problem becuase thre is no tolerance for Ammo/Nitrite in a reef tank anyways. So, why this is a such a problem to solve in a freshwater tank baffles me.
I recently brought my converted 75gal fresh water tank online, and cycled the stupid thing in 12 days. Want to know how? I filled it full of plenty of rocks, used adequate powerheads to move water around, didn't mess with silly bio-wheels, and used cheap fish with high metabolic rates such as zebra danios and tinfoil barbs. 12 days - that's it. Ammonia went from being just detectable to back to zero. I could care less with nitrite is because it will follow the same course.
Which brings me to my first complaint - fishless cycling. Yeah, I've done it with salt water tanks because I get sick of chasing damsels around when the cycle is finished. First, my experience with fishless cycling is that it takes much longer than *with* fish, and next, it creates and artificial bacteria colony that have to re-adjust when actual fish are put in the next. I'd also like to ask our resident expert here if he/she is aware that nitrite reducing bacteria *will not grow* in the presence of ammonia, so it doesn't save you time in that respect.
A couple people have commented that they've never lost fish while cycling, and I can be added to that group. I've seen fresh water tanks when cycling produce ammo levels so high they'd sterilize every living thing in a salt water tank. Obviously if you're breeding discus or neons you need pristine water conditions, but what gives with this 'bacteria in a bottle' for starting to a tank? Last I checked, nitrosomas and nitrobacter required this stuff called oxygen to survive, and there ain't a whole lot of that in a plastic bottle now is there? You do realize these two bacteria basically thrive on virtually any moist and dark surface on earth? Throw a spoon full of dirt in your tank if you must.
Otherwise, by reading these threads I strongly recommend many of you re-think your filtration systems, dump the bio-wheels and HOB filters, get adequate circulation in your tanks, and find a way to export nitrate.
I tested the tap water, and all the levels were actually quite wonderful, everything was either 0ppm or near 0ppm
Regardless, the bloom is likely induced by a nutrient being introduced from the water changes (phosphate and silicate are two common ones), and bad tank husbandry because the good bacteria can't compete with the bad. You have no idea how often I see this same problem, and it's always the same tank set-up; Usually poor circulation, hang on back only style filter, and the bllom occurs a few days after a water change.
Rip out the gravel, clean most of the gunk, and stick a good undergravel plate in there with 200gph head. Throw the hang on back filter in the trash since it's basically your biological filter anyways, and failing.
Regardless, the bloom is likely induced by a nutrient being introduced from the water changes (phosphate and silicate are two common ones), and bad tank husbandry because the good bacteria can't compete with the bad. You have no idea how often I see this same problem, and it's always the same tank set-up; Usually poor circulation, hang on back only style filter, and the bllom occurs a few days after a water change.
Rip out the gravel, clean most of the gunk, and stick a good undergravel plate in there with 200gph head. Throw the hang on back filter in the trash since it's basically your biological filter anyways, and failing.
It's not a problem to solve in FW. When the tank is cycled there's no ammonia or nitrite.blasterman said:
Great. But most of us do care about nitrite levels.blasterman said:
It did in my tank. I've just finished a fishless cycle. I added ammonia every day.blasterman said:
What's an 'artificial bacteria colony' ? After the cycle is finished, that's it. There's no adjusting of anything.blasterman said:
Ok, first point...technically there is NO fishless cycle. I don't care what people tell you or what they say at the LFS. If you look at the chemestry and what is involved the tank cycling does not even start to happen until you add fish. It doesn't matter if your tank has sat full of water for 8 years, it will not start cycling until you add fish. There are some products on the market that can help with this so call "fishless" cycle but I have never heard of any credible source pushing this type of cycling.
Cycling is a slow process if done correctly and there are numerous variables to make every situation unique. I personally, when cycling a new tank do use the product "cycle". It will NOT cycle the tank for you, this produce simply helps reduce the spikes that occurr in your tank DURING the cycling process. It can take 2 months to fully cycle a tank and it can not be considered established until its reaches at least the one year mark after cycling.
Cycling is a slow process if done correctly and there are numerous variables to make every situation unique. I personally, when cycling a new tank do use the product "cycle". It will NOT cycle the tank for you, this produce simply helps reduce the spikes that occurr in your tank DURING the cycling process. It can take 2 months to fully cycle a tank and it can not be considered established until its reaches at least the one year mark after cycling.
uwish said:
Sorry, but this is just nonsense. The 'cycle' generally refers the part of the nitrogen cycle where ammonia is converted to nitrite which is converted to nitrate. It doesn't matter if the ammonia source is from fish respiration or from a bottle of ammonia. The bacteria that oxidize ammonia and nitrite are ubiquitous and they will colonize a tank with ammonia content in the water.
It could be said that there are other microorganisms that must also establish themselves before a tank is established, but the nitrifiers are the most important as unoxidized ammonia is toxic.
Please refrain from contributing to posts on topics about which you have no information. Posting wrong information is worse than not posting...
Jim
I couldn't agree more, Jim. Also, the product called Cycle, which uwish touted as one he used is known to actually slow down the cycle as it, in the end, removes ammonia and thereby starves the beneficial bacteria. Also, to say you have never heard of any credible sources pushing this type of cycling is to ignore a huge chunk of the aquarist hobby and shows a certain lack of understanding of some of the more recent developments. Oh, and for what it's worth, uwish, check into a product called BIO-Spira from Marineland. Not only does it work to help significantly reduce or eliminate the cycle period, it has been proven time and again. There, now between Jim and me you have $.04 USD.JSchmidt said:
Cycling refers to the establishment of nitrifying bacteria. True, there are other bacteria, such as heterotrophs, which will develop once there is a source of organic waste for them to consume, but these are not part of "cycling". In truth, FW tanks are not "cycled" they're "nitrified" since we don't establish nitrogen fixers or denitrifiers.
Ammonia does come from fish poo as it's decomposed, but the direct source from fish is through their gills. While we fix our ammonia in our kidneys - in the form of urea - fish simply secrete it to the water surrounding them.
Ammonia does come from fish poo as it's decomposed, but the direct source from fish is through their gills. While we fix our ammonia in our kidneys - in the form of urea - fish simply secrete it to the water surrounding them.
