cycling nightmare

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keekeemama

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Aug 26, 2004
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3 weeks ago i got a 55 gal. tank as a gift, not knowing anything about fish tanks or cycling i went out and bought 15 fish and threw them in, stupid, stupid, stupid, then i go online to learn all about my new fish(a little to late) i realized after reading all these posts i totally messed up, i went out and bought tests and started testing my water everyday, my ammonia for the last 3 weeks has fluccuated between .25 and the highest it has been is 2.0, nitrites between .25 and .50, i have been doing 20% water changes almost every other day for the last 2 weeks,when the ammonia was over 1.0, i also tried cycle and amquel before reading here they wont help, about a week ago went to my moms house who has an established tank and grabbed about a cup of her gravel, tested her water first, all 0's , and put in my tank, in the meantime about a week and a half ago 3 neons and a platy died, 11 fish left, corys, gourami, pleco, loaches,a frog, called my lfs and they told me to put about 10 gals of my moms cycled water and add her filter to my tank, no more water changes, no more amquel, did that today, now about 8 hours later ammonia is at 2, nitrites at .50, the thing i realized today is that after 3
weeks my nitrites have not risen at all which means my cycle has stuck, i am so frustrated i actually started crying today, i love animals, fish to and dont want any fish to suffer or die because i didnt do my research before i bought fish, all i want to do now is to do this right for my fishes sake, my temp is about 78, i have 2 air bubble things, i have been feeding less, what more can or should i do also is there a point ppm wise(1.0-8.0) in ammonia and nitrite that you HAVE to water change, assuming i shouldnt be changing the water, or just ride it out without water changes no matter how high it gets, fish be damned?
 
The reason some people will tell you not to do the water changes is that you need ammonia in there to feed the bacteria so they'll multiply and start/complete the cycle. This is true, but when you have fish in there, you have no choice but to change it at some point for their safety. All this will do is cause you some extra work with the water changes and the cycle will take a bit longer, but you should be able to save some of the fish.

I wouldn't let the ammonia get over 2ppm for certain, but 1ppm or so would be better IMO. I'm really not certain how far you can let the nitrItes go before they're too high, so I'll let someone else tackle that one.

Have you tested for nitrAtes at all yet? NitrAtes are the final step in the cycle (and what is removed during regular maintenance water changes). Once you start seeing them, you're well on your way to having that thing cycled. BTW it was a good idea getting gravel and filters from your mom's established tank, however I doubt the actual water from her tank helped much, so I wouldn't bother with that anymore. How long have you had the gravel/filter in there? That should boost things up pretty good.

Don't feel bad that you made mistakes, feel proud that you searched for help :)
 
The cycling process can take up to 6 weeks from a fresh start, adding old media from an established tank can decrease the time by a week or two.

I've found Cycle to be useless so you can stop using that. Its not going to speed up the cycle process at all because it uses a different strain of bacteria.

Tank water from an established tank is also pretty useless as the beneficial bacterias are mostly located in the filter media and gunk.

Your tank is in the middle of the cycle process and the part where the nitrite levels spike and drop is the longest part, so hang in there. Continue to do your water changes, daily if necessary, to keep the the ammonia levels to 1ppm or below and nitrite to .50 or below. Continue to feed the fishes lightly and don't add anymore chemicals to the water.
 
:sad Sorry for your passed fishies.

Adding the gravel and filter from the established tank are very good things to do, provided the tank they come from is disease free.

As for not changing the water at all, I would think that is a *very* bad thing to do for the fish. The tank may cycle a little faster, but the fish would most likely die.

I wouldn't worry overly about nitrITEs not coming up, in my experience the spike for nitrITEs can happen very quickly. (possible you missed it?)

you might see if you could find a temporary home for the fish and start a fishless cycle. (see the cycle sticky) In that case, don't change the water until the cycle is done. If not, I'd do water changes daily until ammonia is 0, nitrites are 0, and nitrATEs start to show up.
 
A couple of things to add, Water changes should not slow your cycle, and although 1ppm ammonia is usually considered acceptable during fishy cycling, I would try to keep it below 0.5 on ammonia and nitrite both. Ammonia essentially burns the gills and causes long term damage that will inevitable shorten the life of the fish to some extent or another. There will always be enough ammonia to feed the bacteria, even when levels are undetectable to your test kits. the fish constantly produce ammonia, so the bacteria can't be starved with water changes.
IMO once you have already started a fishy cycle you might as well finish it, with some extra work you can do this without harming the fish. Fishless cycling has distinct advantages, and I highly prefer it, but you are already past that point. Fishy cycling simply means a lot of water changes and constant testing until safe levels become the norm. The cycle sticky contains a lot of good information on all methods, and you should read it clear through including all replies, and maybe even take some notes. it will help you and your fish.
As said the water from another tank doesn't help much if at all, the gravel (surface gravel only) will help, but the best bacteria colonies will be in the filter media, be cautious of media from an LFS because you can mport nasties, and with fish already in the tank, it is easy to transfer some diseases.
Dave
 
Amquell and stuck sycles

I suspect that the use of the Amquell was what got your cycle stuck. They say that it leaves the ammonia able to be used by the biofilter but I suspect that it releases it so slowly that the bacteria dont' really get going. while the fish are always producing ammonia, the excess Amquell is there just waiting to snatch it away from the bacteria.

But, most importantly, don't blame the stuck cycle on the water changes. Just stop using the Amquell, keep it for emergencies, and transporting fish. (One day you'll come home to find all power off to the tank, then you reach for the Amquell!)

Now, if your mom has a mature tank, then you are golden. You can move her bacteria over, without taking her filter, by having her clean her filter using her tank water. Then you take that bucket of nasty brown tank water full of filter gunk and pour it straight into your filter. Instant bacteria! If you could bottle that you'd make a fortune....

Now, I suggest dong a large water change just before you add the bacteria, be sure to match temps and to dechlorinate properly. Then add the filter squeezings to your tank. The tank will get all cloudy and dirty, just turn out the lights and come back tomorrow when it is cleared up, the fish will be OK.

Keep testing the ammonia, do a second transfer if you think you need to, but you might be fine with just one.
 
I've never found that Amquel has any inhibitory effect on ammonia (complexed or not) being used by bacteria. I use Amquel in my office tank, which often shows .5 - .7 ppm ammonia after a water change (our water has chloramines). The ammonia is taken just as fast now that I use Amquel as it did when I used plain sodium thiosulfate.

This isn't hard empirical evidence, I realize, but I've yet to read any real explanation of why Amquel would slow the use of ammonia by nitrifiers, and my experience with it doesn't support that, either.

Jim
 
My understanding of Amquel is the same as JSchmidt explains it. the ammonia it binds is still available for use by the bacteria. I have not personally tested it to prove this so I hesitated to state that earlier. Of all the products and claims out there, my research seems to indicate that amquel and prime are two products which actually do most or all of what they claim, and come highly recommended by most folks who use them. I have not heard of either of them causing a problem with cycling or bacteria growth.
dave
 
I concede

Hey, if you guys say it is OK, then I'll concede, I was repeating something I had heard on another board, not my own experiences.

But, back to the problem. She stopped the Amquell and now ammonia is much higher, or at least it visible on tests now. So, the ammonia consuming bacteria are not up to speed yet, after 3 weeks.
 
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