Deformed fry...why?

[LadyBarbara001]

In my first spawn of Neochromis Omnicaeruleus, a fairly rare Victorian cichlid, I had one deformed fry. It wasn't able to swim very well, and seemed to do back flips. When asking advice on this little guy, (from someone I consider an expert) I was told to wait and see how it developed. He's about a month old, and no longer does back flips, but I can see he's got a problem with a strange curvature to his tail. I plan on growing him out another month or so and seeing what happens. I was told that this may correct itself. But one fry, out of 11, I wasn't all that concerned.

Second spawn now, and half of the fry seem to have this same problem. I have maybe 10 or 11 again, very paranoid mom and very protective, so it's hard for me to count.

Now, I did ask if inbreeding would cause this. I was told that a lot of the fish that we have now were only collected on one occasion, so that they are all related. Yellow labs were an example given, that at one point for a long time all Yellow labs came from one wild caught pair. I was told not to worry about the inbreeding part of it, and again grow these fish out and see what happened.

If inbreeding is not the cause of this, then I have several theories on this. Either the mom or dad has a genetic problem somewhere, or she is holding the fry too long, and I need to strip her earlier to keep the spine/tail straight.

I am getting more of the Neochromis Omnicaeruleus this weekend, and plan to mix up my group some, making 2 or more breeding groups. Hopefully these fish are not closely blood related, so I will be able to strengthen the bloodlines some. The problem is, these fish aren't common, and finding unrelated fish is going to be very difficult, if my problem is indeed inbreeding.

I'd like to hear others' opinions on this. I'm not ruling out anything at this point, but would like to hear what you all think.

 

[Nolapete]

One of the most common signs of inbreeding is spinal deformities. I would just watch the next spawns for signs of trouble.

Holding the fry longer wouldn't cause that kind of problem.

Is your group related that you know of? Your plan to add more genetic material to your group is the best idea to avoid future problems.

 

[LadyBarbara001]

One of the most common signs of inbreeding is spinal deformities. I would just watch the next spawns for signs of trouble.

Holding the fry longer wouldn't cause that kind of problem.

Is your group related that you know of? Your plan to add more genetic material to your group is the best idea to avoid future problems.

I am fairly certain that my group is related. I'm not sure that I can get away from that with this particular species. I've not seen them for sale anywhere, and I watch a bunch of lists for different Victorian species. I know that these were a special order, and several members of my local club picked them up. The ones I'm getting this weekend were larger at shipping than the ones I have now, so at least they are from different spawns, although I could not say for sure that they have different parentage.

I went to a speech by Paul Loiselle in November, on conservation. We were able to question him on this topic, and he said...and I'm not quoting, that the genetic material included in the fish is so big that inbreeding wasn't a huge problem, as long as you made as many fry as you possibly could, and made sure to cull any problems. I am able to cull, and I will, but I'd hate to do it before the fry had a chance to "grow out of it." In the first month, the one fry has already been able to control his swimming, but I can see a curve in his tail. He's too small for me to get pictures of.

Of the new fry, the ones that are normal are quite a bit larger than the ones that have problems. I wonder what the significance is of that.

 

[excuzzzeme]

Food can also have a negative effect. Even though you may use quality food, freshness will have a bearing as well. You may also consider how much and how often you feed and whether or not you provide a variety.

 

[Pittbull]

There could be several theories about this which include inbreeding to the temp of the tank and the mother holding to long down to genetic issues..

But i have never heard of waiting to see if it corrects itself usually when there born deformed like the all too famous tail deformity than usually thats what they will look like when older (i could be wrong) but in my experience i never seen a correction for this type of deformity..

So when it reaches two months of age are you still going to wack it or let it live..

But as the lessons learned while breeding you are going to run into a deformed baby every now and then but not like you are running into with every brood..

I will reach out on a limb and say that 20% that mom is holding too long, 30% inbreeding and 50% it may be fouled genetics out of a 100% theory..

Again i am no ichthyologist and this is an opinion.. very debatable..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthyology#Notable_ichthyologists

 

[austinpetemo]

if the deformities continue you may want to cull the whole group including the parents, because if its a genetic trait than all the babies have it (even the ones that dont show it) and if your not sure which parent it is carrying the trait (im sure its nearly impossible) than youre gonna want most likely wont to cull the parents and start up a different pair, thats just my addvice. but i could be wrong.

it could be inbreeding but i highly doubt that they are that closely related but hell its a small world so who knows. whichever it is i hope your able to find a solution, good luck.

 

[LadyBarbara001]

OK, if I can tell it apart from the other fry at 2 months of age by the deformity, then I will cull it. If I can't...well I'm not culling the entire batch. I may keep them, and see what happens when that set begins to breed, but I won't cull something so hard to find when I have a lot of people interested in fry. Not unless I have to.

As to culling the parents, I'd rather hold off on that until I get the new group, and do some mixing and matching of fish. Again, this species isn't endangered, but they do seem to be very difficult to obtain. I don't know how easily I could replace them.

As to food....that is interesting. They are mainly herbivores, and I feed a Spirulina flake mixed with a Cichlid flake, twice a day. Once a week I feed all my tanks frozen brine shrimp, as seems to promote breeding for me.

 

[Pittbull]

I wouldnt cull the parents just wouldnt let the fry out to friends with the deformities, i would feed the fry to your other fish but i am like you i dont want to kill them..

But i would switch them up when the opportunity arises to see if its a gene issue

 

[Pittbull]

Also the reason i asked to wack or not to wack is that i am a big softy when it comes to culling tiny babies i sorta feel sorry for them and i believe everyone deserves a chance at life..

Don't get me wrong i do believe in euthanasia but only when an animal is suffering and there is no hope for recovery..

I bought a tail deformed black koi one time because the owner was going to wack him and he was like 8 inches already and i was like dude why would you let him live that long and all of the sudden you want to wack him, i will take him and actually he lived longer than i thought he would in a 1000gal pond with a couple of goldies and lived the sweet life and if you see how i care for my tank fish you see my 2 ponds they live the good life hehehe..

 

[Bre001]

I think the thing with these is...Was it Greg that said this Barbara?? We were told that ALL the fish of this particular breed were brought in in one group from the lake so if that is the case ALL fish of this species in this country stem from 1 original group...Yes, you can still mix and match with different spawn but there really is no way to get unrelated fish. Wasn't that about what was said Barbara???