There aren't actually people in your fiance, are there happychem?!? I mean, I thought the rest of this thread was confusing enough, but . . . wow! 
Does phosphate cause stunting?
- Thread starter slipknottin
- Start date
There aren't actually people in your fiance, are there happychem?!? I mean, I thought the rest of this thread was confusing enough, but . . . wow! 
So, I have looked up ionic regulation in my really old fish physiology book, and found a lot about Na, K and HCO3, and a little about SO4, but nothing about PO4.
I still think it won't be readily absorbed (remember the difference between NH3 and NH4+, one of which is toxic because it is uncharged and is easily absorbed via the gills).
Nonetheless, there's another important point. What are the normal plasma and intracellular concentrations of PO4 in FW fish? If PO4 is normally higher in the blood than in a polluted tank, then it's not likely to make much of a difference. On the other hand, if the plasma concentrations are a lot lower, then the fish may struggle to PO4 out.
I found one ref on google for 4-8 mM, but I'm not convinced that it's reliable. Now I want to go back to work and get on a decent database, but it will have to wait.
I still think it won't be readily absorbed (remember the difference between NH3 and NH4+, one of which is toxic because it is uncharged and is easily absorbed via the gills).
Nonetheless, there's another important point. What are the normal plasma and intracellular concentrations of PO4 in FW fish? If PO4 is normally higher in the blood than in a polluted tank, then it's not likely to make much of a difference. On the other hand, if the plasma concentrations are a lot lower, then the fish may struggle to PO4 out.
I found one ref on google for 4-8 mM, but I'm not convinced that it's reliable. Now I want to go back to work and get on a decent database, but it will have to wait.
Hey, then all we have to do is convert combursome ppm to useful mM, or rather, vice versa!
Keep us posted, this is interesting...
Keep us posted, this is interesting...
Allright, I have combed through the lit, as much as keeping my job will allow. Here's what I learned:
In aquaculture, getting enough phosphate into the fish is more of a problem than keeping it out.
The vast majority of phosphate is absorbed actively in the intestine. It is stored in the bones, where it can be released for metabolism as needed. Output is regulated by the kidneys. Once it gets over a certain level, the kidneys let loose and excrete it at a high rate.
The plasma level I mentioned earlier (about 5-8 mmol/l) seems fairly common.
I really hate ppm, but I'll try to make the conversion. The molecular weight of PO4 is 95. So, a 1 M solution would be 95 ppt, right? 1mM = 95 ppm, so 5 mM would be 475 ppm. If my calculations are right, then this is a whole lot higher than even the most polluted aquarium.
In aquaculture, getting enough phosphate into the fish is more of a problem than keeping it out.
The vast majority of phosphate is absorbed actively in the intestine. It is stored in the bones, where it can be released for metabolism as needed. Output is regulated by the kidneys. Once it gets over a certain level, the kidneys let loose and excrete it at a high rate.
The plasma level I mentioned earlier (about 5-8 mmol/l) seems fairly common.
I really hate ppm, but I'll try to make the conversion. The molecular weight of PO4 is 95. So, a 1 M solution would be 95 ppt, right? 1mM = 95 ppm, so 5 mM would be 475 ppm. If my calculations are right, then this is a whole lot higher than even the most polluted aquarium.
Looks right to me, the calculation that is.
So I guess that that means that high PO4 in an aquarium is just a proxy for unhealthy conditions caused by overstocking.
Hey, I can do the conversion, I can convert inches to cm if need be too, doesn't mean I won't gripe about people using outdated, non-base 10, systems
So I guess that that means that high PO4 in an aquarium is just a proxy for unhealthy conditions caused by overstocking.
Hey, I can do the conversion, I can convert inches to cm if need be too, doesn't mean I won't gripe about people using outdated, non-base 10, systems
Just giving you a hard time.
Living in the states can lead to some interesting recipes. My weekly kalkwasser mix is as follows:
2.5 gallons RO water
100 ml white vinegar
7 tsp kalkwasser.
If I could add a third system of units, I would do it.
Living in the states can lead to some interesting recipes. My weekly kalkwasser mix is as follows:
2.5 gallons RO water
100 ml white vinegar
7 tsp kalkwasser.
If I could add a third system of units, I would do it.
does a higher level of phosphate in the water prevent the fish from absorbing calcium from the water possibly?
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