Dreaded "Green Water", Fishless Cycling, and other questions (plants involved)...

[Leto]

Getting back to Leto's nitrates,

No offense intended but are you sure you're testing properly? I've found nitrate tests in particular must be followed exactly as per the directions. In my test, that includes shaking solution bottles well, mixing step 1 with tank sample before adding step 2, and finally waiting a full 5 min before reading the sample. I suppose manufacturers may use different reagents but in mine you must follow directions fully or you get false readings.

Yes, I'm sure I use the timer on my watch to get all the timing correct.

And I am fairly anal about it as well - if I get a result I didn't expect, I re-test it. I have also tested my tap water, and bottled water etc. My tap water is consistantly about 20ppm Nitrates, my tank water has been testing around 5ppm....bottled water (Deer Park) shows only trace amounts (<1ppm, very close to zero without actually being zero.)

 

[Leto]

Let us know how you make out.

I took the cover off this morning and did a 50% water change. The water was drastically clearer, and the Anacharis mostly seems to be ok (some of the stems that were not so healthy before the blackout may be far enough gone that they need to be removed but otherwise they seem to have done fine.)

The filter media was due a change so I did that and now (several hours later) the water seems a little cloudy but I'm hoping that is maybe just a minor bacteria bloom because of the media change rather than anything to do with that despisable green water I was trying to get rid of

I tested my water both before and after the water change: A new trend is a little bit troubling: my PH is trending downward pretty steadily. The tap measures at a pretty nice 7.1 but the tank water is now at 6.6 and trending downward.

I'm not panicing yet or anything but I definatly want to track down the cause of it so I can stabilize it at a level closer to my tap water.

It is also of note that the NitrItes was 4x higher when I took the cover off than when I put it on. Nitrite measurement of a little higher than 2.0 *after* the water change (was up over 3-something before the water change).

Still no fish in it, but I am seriously questioning the state of the cycle in my tank, espically considering this is its 6th week

 

[staceyanna]

Thanks for the tip! I have an emperor 280!

Staceyanna- i am not sure what kind of filter you are running, but i can explain how to do it with an emperor 400....i just slap one cut to size on the back of the square charcoal basket...water flows through, filter catches algae...Works pretty good in conjunction with a blackout

 

[Galaxie]

Leto,
How exactly do you dose your tank with ammonia? I would think you should dose on a regular schedule and never give it a break. Eventually the ammonia will drop to zero, then you should increase the dosage to account for a heavier fish load (depending on what fish you plan on adding). I was thinking you stopped dosing ammonia when you saw the nitrites spike to 3.5. You can't stop dosing.

Also, with no actual solid waste, you should not need to ever change your filter media until you have fish. Changing your media could have set your cycle back weeks. You are cleaning your filter media with tank water, and not just replacing it, correct?

(edit)3 x 15 watts really isn't much light for plants in a tall 20g tank. Its so deep, 15 watts can't really penetrate to the bottom. Java Fern doesn't need much light, but Anacharis does.....and will grow like crazy with good light. On my 20g high tank, I've used 2x45 watts, but have just ordered 2 x 60 watts. The bottom is covered with Java fern and there is one Amazon sword.

 

[Leto]

Leto,
How exactly do you dose your tank with ammonia? I would think you should dose on a regular schedule and never give it a break. Eventually the ammonia will drop to zero, then you should increase the dosage to account for a heavier fish load (depending on what fish you plan on adding). I was thinking you stopped dosing ammonia when you saw the nitrites spike to 3.5. You can't stop dosing.

I was dosing daily until the blackout (which inturrupted things) ...raising it to about 1ppm and it would drop back to 0ppm by the following day.

I am considering dosing twice a day, but only half as much per dose (same net volume) - I am worried that it was the ammonia in the water that encouraged the Green Water to begin with.

The odd part was that it would take 1ppm of Ammonia to zero every 24 hours without fail, but the Nitrites after initially dropping always stayed between 0.5ppm and 1ppm (often going up and hanging around 1ppm more than it would be lower), but never ever going to zero.

I'm not entirely sure what the difference is since the blackout, why Nitrites would have gone up so high like that all of a sudden - I know that my ammonia schedule was thrown way off, but unless something other than bacteria was eating nitrite that wasn't eating it during the blackout, then I really can't explain it.

 

[Leto]

btw, to get 1ppm using the "clear ammonia" solution I had (water was one of the ingredients, but no dyes or any of that stuff - it passes the shake test), I have to use ~1 teaspoon.

 

[Galaxie]

It is pretty odd that the nitrites won't drop to zero. Depending on how many snails are in there, they make waste themselves and are possibly interfering with your artificial cycle. Consider this...... Stop dosing ammonia. If the snails survive, fish might survive also. Its not really a fishless cycle if you have snails creating organic waste.....and the ammonia you add is just throwing your test levels off. How long have the snails been living?

 

[Leto]

They are only very tiny snails and they came in on the second batch of Anacharis I bought. (first time I only got a single bunch, second time I went and got 3 bunches, and I think the snails were only on even one of those - the LFS kept anacharis in several different tanks, and one was from a tank I had not purchased from before....ironically it was also the most healthy of all the anacharis I had bought and is *still* doing the best hehe).

Anyway, that would be about.....3, maybe 4 weeks ago? Something like that.

The snails have grown from specks you could hardly make out (literally, they were only *just* big enough to see that they were in fact some kind of snail, but you literally could not tell anything beyond that, they didn't even have any color yet) to growing over a 1/4 inch long for the smaller ones, and their are a pair of larger ones that have been doing better that, including the tail are close to half an inch now.

It is of note that I did not have any source of bacteria at the time, and at that point my aquarium had shown zero sign whatsoever that it was cycling at all (what ammonia I originally added was still in there and not changing levels at all at the time.) So I figured that if I now had even small snails in there, then I had some of the beneficial bacteria as well.....I also figured that the ammonia levels would kill them all off within a couple days or so.


I was wrong These things act completely immune to both any ammonia -or- nitrite in the tank (I know they can't be, but I can't tell any effects.)

In fact they seem to be doing well enough that I am worried I am going to have a little infestation on my hands: When I took the cover off of the aquarium I noticed attached to some of the plants and decorations in my tank, little bubblish looking things (almost invisible) that had white dots inside it. The only thing I can think of is Snail Eggs. (yikes!)


Anyway, to make a long story short, they were just infant snails that hitchhiked in on some of the Anacharis. They were not something I bought intentionally.

At best count the most snails (1/4inch or longer) that I can ever count at once are like 8, and even though I know those things can hide extreamly well, I don't think there are all that many more than that (normal count is 3-5). Not sure those little guys by themselves could produce enough waste?

 

[Leto]

Some things to report:

Today I got the phosphorus test and the GH/KH test:

This evenings test results are thus:



Temp: 78
PH: 6.7
Ammonia: 0.0
Nitrite: 2.0
Nitrate: 80
Phosphate: 0.5
dKH: 2
dGH: 3 (the GH test was really hard to tell on, 3 is my closest estimate - there was never a sudden shift of color, it was always extremely light)


Notables are the KH being pretty low.

What shocked me the most however was NitrAtes at **80**. Nitrates have been testing at ~5ppm for literally over two weeks. Now a jump to 80ppm overnight (I did test yesterday and it was at 5ppm)

My Nitrites didn't visibly drop though. How could that have happened other than the nitrogen cycle, and how is it possible to jump that far that fast? no curve up or anything.

I am so confused


I also have to note that the water is sooo very GREEN I did the 5 night, 4 day total blackout and within 3 days it is greener than it was before the blackout I literally can't see through the tank all over again.


I am so very frustrated

In 2 days I will start the 7th week on this tank and never had a single fish

I don't know what to do.

 

[Producer]

yep

Same problem here still. Looks worse.

I was going to start testing this on my own, but I see you still have the same problem Leto. All that testing you do and even no fish in there, ouch. :rant2:

I got algae eaters in there now, so a UV lamp is out fo the question. The water changes just make it worse. I guess a full 7 day light deprevation?

Oh well, I am about ready to give up.