Dwarf Rainbow with foot and mouth disease???

In my opinion, there is a progression of the illness as indicated by the formation of "bumps" under the skin on both sides of the fish, and at this point I would try to treat with Metro medicated food, especially.

Clean water and a stress free enviornment, perfect parameters, etc., of course these are the first course to take in any illness, especially when we don't really know what the illness is.

If this is Microsporidia then the outlook is is probably poor, but using meds at this point is worth a try.
 
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Just wanted to inform Fabio or orthers of the consequences of wrong medication and/or improper usage..

If memory serves, CLOUT by Aquarium Products is Metronidazole. Correct me if I am wrong. As someone with science background and from experiences, Jungle is not my first nor last choice medication as I would prefer more definitive medication over mixtures.
And Prazi is for internal worm (roundworm) infestation as can be absorbed thru skin (I think). Diflubenzuron is an pesticide/insecticide which prohibits production of chitin (outer shell of insect) and there are other organophosphorous insecticidal compounds( for example, metriphonate; works on nervous system) but no relation with this symptoms. Although all avail insecticidal cpd are probably stoichemically well formulated by mfr to be safe for aquarium use, I dont see a need to use such med when CLOUT is nothing but metronidazole and readily avail..
Most importantly, I dont know of consequences of insecticide/even acriflavin use at home so near children or handled by underaged.. I am sure CLOUT can be obtained thru lfs even in UK, I hope????

Anyway, hope this is nothing serious and hope my assumption is wrong as this rainbow is displaying fantastic coloration.
 
It is a beautiful fish, and amazingly healthy looking other than the obvious. The lesion on the mouth is pretty disturbing... and hard to believe it's not having an impact on the Rainbow's abilitity to eat.

It doesn't show any signs of wasting. I do so hope it will recover.

I have used Parasite Clear several times successfully, and feel that it's pretty mild, but I certainly believe that an internal approach with Metro in food is the best bet for helping the Rainbow.

Clout is a good product. I'm not sure what's available there. Hope things get better for your Rainbow, Fabio.
 
Just checked on Clout. Here are the ingredients:

Phenylbenzylindene, dimethyl, phosphonate, methylnitro and inert ingredients as non-toxic binders

Metro, if available, would be my first choice. I ordered from Petmountain.com and got straight Metronidazole, in powder or crystal form, for under $10. It has a little scoop that helps with dosing. I mixed up some(one tiny scoop) in about 2 tablespoons of tank water in one of those little pill cups like you get when you're in the hospital

I dropped about a tablespoon of Kensfish veggie pellets in it. I allowed it to sit for about an hour and the pellets soaked up every bit of the liquid with Metro in it. Then I dropped some of that in the tank, and refridgerated the rest, covered tightly with plastic wrap.
 
Just stop over at lfs on the way back from AutoZOne and found the ingredients. It seems my memory didnt serve correctly this time:
4-[p-(dimethylamino)-)0-phenylbenzylidiene]-2,-5-cyclohexadien-1-xylidene dimethylammonium chroride has something to with Malachite Green, I believe.

dimethy'[2,2,2-trichloro-1-hydroxy-ethel) phosphonate has something to do with pesticide/insecticide.

1,2-dimethyl-5 nitroimidazole related to metronidazole.

Dont recall CLOUT had such formulation thus no grinding up for ingestion purpose. Use specific metro powder as Mel pointed out if and when possible. I guess 8yrs of absence from hobby does pose threat to my memory in refrence to chemical ingredients/properties of drugs.

Thanx to this thread/Mel, I have refreshed my memory on CLOUT, LOL!

Use distilled water when making stock solution for ingestion , not the tank water.
If distilled is not possible, at least bottled or aged tap water. Dosing the tank and oral ingestion is two different issues.

Dont make too much. I would prefer to make enough stock (droplets of water with very little powder) for one day feeding. Refrigeration can alter its activity and I am not gonna search the proper temp to adequately store stock solution of any med. I know it may be hassle to make solution per feeding but this is what makes fish keeping fun. Well, at least in my views.

Hope all goes well!
 
Thanks a lot my friends!
Googling for fish lumps I had guessed Lymphocystis (Cauliflower Disease), but apparently can be much worse :(

Anyway after your suggestions I went shopping, I visited 3 lfs and I reached the conclusion that the UK is not the right place to cure fish diseases... All I could find was melafix, primafix and then the Interpet & Waterlife medications for the usual diseases: white spot, fin rot, protozoan infestation etc. Looking at the ingredients all have formaline, and most have malachite green....
I'm now shopping online, I've found metronidazole, and I'm going to order it right now, but I wonder if I'll get it reasonably quick.

Meanwhile since the nodules are still intact and the precox is still in the main tank I'm tempted to add the Interpet general tonic, composition for 100 mls is: bronopol 495mg, copper EDTA 3318mg, formaldehyde 1000mg, silver proteinate 23mg.
Basically I guess it is more for the other fish, in case there is already protozon infestation in the tank...

I have the QT up and running, in case the situation get worst, but I'm tempted to leave him in good company in the main tank, precox are not solitary fish... do you think I'm crazy because risking all other fish (including my favourity dwarf gouramy Tommy, a beautiful Boeseman's, the two thick lipped gourami etc etc....), maybe I am....
 
EDIT: I posted too late, lol.

Regarding your above post - I do worry about exposure to your other fish. Isolation is one of the first things we think about in the case of illness, but as you state, the others may be alreay infected, certainly they've been exposed and it is probably a good idea to treat the whole tank now.

I worry about Tommy, having gone through the one illness that you were able to successfully treat.

Lymphocystis was a good guess, but I don't think this looks like that at all.

I think, making my best guess... I would go ahead and treat the whole tank as you suggest. However, if you see any signs that the bumps appear about to rupture I would get the Rainbow out of the main tank and isolate.


Regarding the earlier posts between Cerianthus and myself:

I agree that distilled or bottled spring water would be good to use; I used tank water because I was treating in a 5 gallon hospital tank and doing 90% water changes every day, so I felt the tank water was pretty clean.

Aged tap is good as long as your municipal water system doesn't use chloramine.

As for ingesting the water, if the fish is or has been eating flake, or any other prepared fishfood, by the time it's dropped into the water and the fish gets to it... it will have absorbed some of the tank water and ingested some of it anyway, but I agree that distilled or even bottled spring water would be a good choice.

As for refridgerating it, freezing may be better, but in the short term refrigerating the medicated food will adequately preserve the efficacy of the antibiotic for several days.

I think the difficulty of mixing up tiny doses daily may be more of a problem than mixing up a few days worth.

I used the tiny scoop(dose for 5 or 10 gallon tank, If memory serves) that came with the bottle of Metro in 2 tablespoons of water knowing that the fish is going to just nibble a little bit on the food.

I think it would have certainly been an overdose if the fish gulped down huge quantities, but the fish, as I expected, ate little bits of the medicated food. Therefore, although my method was imprecise shot-in-the-dark dosing, I must have hit on a good forumla; it didn't hurt my Brochis, and on another ocassion some Otos, and they all recovered fully.

Since reading the following article, in the future I will have some dosage guidlines to follow in the future.

Here's an excerpt from a paper by by a professer at the University of Florida, regarding treating with Metronidazole medicated food. I've included her dosing information and a food recipe that can be prepared with Metro and frozen. (This article was pertaining to fish infected with Hexamita specifically, but I thought the information regarding the dosing and preparation of medicated food with Metronidazole could be helpful here.)

Here's the excerpt:

"Metronidazole can be administered orally at a dosage of 50 mg/kg body weight (or 10 mg/gm food) for 5 consecutive days. A recipe for a gelatinized food is shown in Table 1 . The medication can also be mixed with dry food using fish oil as a binding agent. One teaspoon of metronidazole weighs approximately 2.25 gm; therefore 2 tsp. should be added to each pound of food. The drug should be added when the gelatinized mixture has cooled, but has not yet set. The medicated food can then be frozen for storage. During the 5 day treatment regime feed only the medicated food to the fish."


Table 1.

Table 1. Recipe for gelatinized food which can be used to deliver oral medication to ornamental fish.


Ingredients:


6 oz


Can of shrimp


2 oz


Frozen spinach


1 oz


Grated carrots


3 tbsp


Baby cereal (dry)


2 tbsp


Brewer's yeast


2 oz


Unflavored gelatin


15 oz


Water


Optional ingredient:


1 tsp


Liquid vitamins


Procedure:


1.Blend 5 oz of water with shrimp, spinach, carrots, baby cereal, brewer's yeast and vitamins.


2.Boil remaining 10 oz of water.


3.Add boiling water to gelatin in a bowl.


4.Cool until gelatin mixture is hot but doesn't burn.


5.Add contents of blender to partially cooled gelatin mixture, mix thoroughly.


6.Add medication to cooled mixture.


7.Pour into flat pan and refrigerate.


8.Cut gelatinized mixture into cubes for feeding and store in freezer.




Dr. Ruth Francis-Floyd, assistant professor of aquaculture and fisheries; Peggy Reed, biological scientist; Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences and Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture; Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida, Gainesville, 32611.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm053


Having said all that, Fabio, I'm wondering how your little Rainbow is faring?

All this info about Metronidazole may be for naught if you are unable to get it, in that case I would try to treat your Rainbow as you did Lucy, your Gourami, with the Interpet product/s that are available to you there in the UK.

And, as always, first priority: Pristine water, stable and stress free conditions and environment; these things are a must to give her the best chance to recover.

Let us know how things are going. Best wishes to you in your efforts.
 
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I went ahead and posted my lengthy comments above, after all that typing I hated to delete it, and should you get the Metro then the info is still good to have, I think.:)
 
Good job Mel!
I was hoping Fabio would do some research on the disease itself and related issues but Mel seemed to have done most of the searching. One usually remembers better when done by him/herself. And such practices and research datas does give one a higher chance to develop creativities/ingenuities in everything in life, IMO.. Necessity is mother of an invention as they say.

Measuring body mass of an fish (rainbow/Neon, etc) and proportionate amount of med in relation to body mass is not that easy at home as it sound to be, unless one has laboratory at home or someone with.......... Thus the term " Easier Said than Done"

I am not sure of research data from above but most of these research are done for farmed fish for our consumption. Let's assume fish to be 1 gm, which is 1/1000 of Kg which is approximately 2.2 lbs. Proportionate amount of Metro to 1 gm fish is 50mg /1000 =0.05 mg. I wonder how mnay people have such SCALE lying around at home.

Just make sure to clean blender well and sanitize with hot water before mom/wife find out. LOL! This is how I ended up with my own blenders/grinders for making fish food.

Anyway, catching fish is easy with small rectangular box. Keep the tank completely dark for few hours (fish will be somewhat suspended in the water). You can easily and gently herd the sleeping fish into box with net/hand in the dim room light so you can see what you are doing.. This is the best way to catch without exposing fish to air. You can use same box with fish and water to acclimate the fish into new surrounding. Just make sure fish dont go for carpet diving from the box while moving the box from one tank to other.

Good Luck with med search and treatment!

btw, Mel! I wasnt worried about ingestion of water but more concerend with possible reactions b/n med and water, especially when left mixed for while. As you probably know, fish keepers tend to add stuff unknowly in hope of healing fish. Thus never the tank water to be mixed with med for ingestion and surely I would not use tank water to prep stock solution to inject via hypodermic needle.
 
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