Endler mystery

I have to wonder if it could be just a mutation, these came from a VERY credible source, I will have to ask if the person I got them from has ever seen this in theirs. I find it hard to believe that this type of thing is guaranteed not to happen, sure they may not have been documented but that doens't mean it can't happen, no offense to your obvious knowledge on the subject matter star :) It is quite the pleasant surprise either way. I haven't added new stock to these in almost a year, is it possible that this occured as a result of inbreeding?
 
Pet, mine have done the same thing and mine have never been with anything else. I was also assured my original stock were class N. I moved the "blonds" to their own tank and they have thrown only regular black bar endlers.
 
I got a few of these from you but they went to another home :) These were bought here on AC from someone I am pretty sure knows what they have and this person said they were class N. Who knows, I have to wonder if in fact it hasn't come from not adding any new blood, these have been the same ones that I bought like two years ago and they have been steadily reprodcing since.
 
Pet, I'm no expert at Endler's and my knowledge is only based on observation and experience. Here is the question that lies regarding this or these blondes that are arising within your population. Are they albino? I can understand albinism -- kinda. In the wild, albinos are least likely to survive natural predators. Because albinos are most likely to not be able to survive and breed against nature's elements, I would think that the gene would eventually be removed from the species; this is simply my personal thinking, although it is a proven fact that albinos animals (even some human albinos in Africa) are subjected to the cruelties of this world.

Now, if these albinos (mind you, true albinos should have red eyes and lack any kind of pigmentation) were to exist in your population, they should not be popping up at the breeding rate of say, your Blackbars. If you're regular wild-type looking Endlers are producing albinos at a normal/steady rate -- this is not albinism. Albinism should be a recessive trait -- as in, you should get albino babies very rarely.

Now, albinism aside. Blonde endlers (regular Endlers that are just yellow) just scream hybrids to me personally. The whole classification of Endlers that have been deemed their own species by scientist do not include blonde Endlers in their classifications. Please note that there is a difference between blonde and albino Endlers. Albinos that pop up very rarely, I can understand. Blondes - not so much. If in fact your regular "wild-type" population is throwing out blondes on a regular basis, I think you really need to be doing some research and possibly emailing experts like Newcomb, Hernandez, Professor Endler himself, Pou, etc. :)

And lastly, Pet, I would also contact the person you purchased these Endler's from who said they were "Class N". If he's not in the database and cannot track the lineage of his Endlers to any of the direct sources of Endlers from Venezuela, the statement of Class N is simply heresay. The Endlers I have right now are not classified either; they are simply Endlers that have come from reliable sources who promise they are 100% wild but by the looks of things, who knows? Either way, I'm at peace. :)
 
"Blonde" endler's aren't albino, they're leucistic, lacking any dark pigment. Corn snakes are selectively bred for that trait, among others, but they weren't crossed with a different species to produce it. I see some turning up among my group too. The one maturing male I've noticed does show some red color on his tail. Interestingly, there appear to be a couple of recent broods that are partially blonde fry. Previously I had only seen 2-3 of them of any age/size at any one time in the population. Nearly all the males are black bar or peacocks, though there are a few others as well.
 
toddnbecka said:
"Blonde" endler's aren't albino, they're leucistic, lacking any dark pigment. Corn snakes are selectively bred for that trait, among others, but they weren't crossed with a different species to produce it. I see some turning up among my group too. The one maturing male I've noticed does show some red color on his tail. Interestingly, there appear to be a couple of recent broods that are partially blonde fry. Previously I had only seen 2-3 of them of any age/size at any one time in the population. Nearly all the males are black bar or peacocks, though there are a few others as well.
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Thank you for that, TnB. :) I'm well aware of leucism in animal species. Several years back (before Endlers were even their own species) - I received and raised Endlers from one of the direct sources for several years - doing what livebearers' do, I immediately had a population boom. I kept those Endlers for probably 3-4 years before I re-homed them due to moving to another state. Never in those 3-4 years did I have a leucistic Endler in my population. Granted, those Endlers were 100% wild -- as in, direct source wilds. At that time, I had Blackbars, Peacocks, and partial Snakeskin Endlers in the set-up.

Back then, hybridisation was less common. People were still unsure whether or not Endlers were guppies or their own separate species. I think people even now still question whether or not Endlers are their own individual species. Nowadays, people have great interest in hybridizing Endlers with wild guppies, fancy guppies, etc and it's unreliable to actually get 100% pure Endlers based on the word of individuals due to adulteration in bloodlines somewhere along the lines and gene history. It only takes seconds for a person to taint their collection of P. wingei with P.reticulata as they are so similar. All it takes it one sperm.

I personally don't care for classifications. A person can be recorded in the database of Class N's, Class C's, Class K's, and whatever other classes of Endlers that are available but because it's so easy for cross-contaminations with P. wingei and P.reticulata to occur, I still find it iffy.

I don't know if this is allowed, but Mgamer from this forum posted these "blonde hybrids" on another site a couple years back. If you google "Blonde Endlers" you will find information that associates the word "blonde" with "hybrid". I think it's all personal preference and belief. I only ask that those of you who have these blondes that pop up -- please do your research and seek advice/knowledge from the Endlers experts (I am not one:grinno:) and make sure what you have is 100% wild before selling them as such, if you choose to do so. This is how tainting occurs -- you are told you are being sold/given 100% wild based on individual word of mouth -- you disregard the fact that you have some unique specimens popping up in your population -- and then you sell the offspring without disclosing that you have blondes, leucistic, albino, yellow, etc young in your population.

IMG_4427.jpg

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f19/endler-livebearers-119470.html

P.S. Ugh, I'm sorry I widened the page with the picture. If any mods have the ability to resize, please and thank you. ;)
 
Stargazer you make a good point about albinism be so recessive that it should not be showing up at a measurable rate. After closer inspection I have found that there is in fact at least 2 males that are peacocks and not black bar, is it possible that the blondes could be coming from the cross of the peacocks and the black bars? There is no need to worry IF and that is a BIG IF I ever get rid of them I will make sure to tell whomever that they have thrown blonde fry. It just kinda surprises me that it has taken almost two years and hundreds of fry before I saw this come up.
 
petluvr said:
Stargazer you make a good point about albinism be so recessive that it should not be showing up at a measurable rate. After closer inspection I have found that there is in fact at least 2 males that are peacocks and not black bar, is it possible that the blondes could be coming from the cross of the peacocks and the black bars? There is no need to worry IF and that is a BIG IF I ever get rid of them I will make sure to tell whomever that they have thrown blonde fry. It just kinda surprises me that it has taken almost two years and hundreds of fry before I saw this come up.
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No, I don't believe that crossing peacocks with blackbars should result in blondes being produced in your population. I'm actually housing blackbars and peacocks together at the moment and have been told that doing so should not result in any irregularities. I have been told however, that the Blackbars are a dominant gene and therefore eventually, I may end up with zero Peacocks or Blackbars with peacock markings.

My guess is (and this is simply a guess) that somewhere in the lineage of your Endlers, they may have been crossed with albino/leucistic guppies. This may have been 5 generations ago or 10 generations ago, but the trait would still be present within the gene pool. It was be definitely recessive but nonetheless existant. You know how sometimes certain traits skip a generation or two before being apparent? I'm thinking it may be something like that. But really, I cannot emphasize this enough -- I am definitely no expert. You would probably be more at peace and better off emailing one of the prominent Endler's experts.

I'm in your same boat. :) My Endlers are not classified, so who knows? I may have blondes pop up in a few months too. ;)
 
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