Every Aquarists Worst Nightmare
- Thread starter Otaku1811
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Hi there, thanks for your advice. I just did another 3/4 water change and this time the water temp is at 82 degrees heater is on but it takes a while to get it up there and gradual is better. I did not add anymore salt this time in case I had been overdoing it and I'm not going to add any meds. Just clean water, novaqua water conditioner, and that's it. I also put in some Stability (same as Prime) to help the good bacteria. I think at this point it's going to have to be water temp alone to kill the ich, and frequent water changes to give the survivors a fighting chance. I feel anymore meds or salt is just going to hasten their deaths by overstressing them at this point. I'm sorry to hear you also had to go through something like this. I have all of my dead fish wrapped up in bags in the freezer, so when spring finally thaws the snow I can give them all a proper burial under a tree. This is unbelievably sad, I love my fish and after having them so many years I'm as attached to them as you would be to a cat or a dog. :< May the deceased fishes rest in peace and may God forgive my stupidity for adding new fish without a QT. I will never make that mistake ever again. A hard learned lesson.
Just to be clear, my previous advice on not using salt was on a regular basis, every week after the partial water change, for no specific purpose. This has no proven benefit. But used to treat a specific disease, is very different. Though some fish will not take this, so be careful.
Edit. Like Deborah said, raising the temp to 86F or higher is said to deal with ich. I know not everyone accepts this. I thought it once worked for me.
Edit. Like Deborah said, raising the temp to 86F or higher is said to deal with ich. I know not everyone accepts this. I thought it once worked for me.
Hi there, I'm not sure why you deleted your post, but I did read over it twice (unfortunately AFTER doing another big water change). I was unaware of the severity of changing salinity with water changes so quickly and how that could effect the fish, now I'm quite concerned maybe that's what has been making them die so quickly. I agree with you I was too hasty with their treatment and I will try to follow your advice from now on and be much more careful about aquarium salt, I'll continue with the Prime each day and smaller water changes.
I didn't see the initial post at all, so with that in mind...generally speaking if something in the water is causing severe stress to fish, a significant major water change will not make things worse provided the parameters are relatively close. You also seem to have had a number of different "treatments" in the water, and getting rid of all of these can be crucial. So I would not let this bother you.
That person mainly stated about putting in salt slowly and gradually removing it to not disturb the fish's osmosis, and how my large water changes likely disrupted that balance. However, I will say, after doing those 2 50% water changes today the fish seem stable right now. No meds, no salt, just clean water, got my carbon in the filters taking up any leftover meds, put my prime bacteria in, and novaqua conditioner. I also removed all the rocks and gravel and am soaking the plants and ornaments in super hot water to kill off any ich. I'll probably pour boiling water onto the gravel when I can. Now the bottom of the tank is clear, so when I do smaller water changes I can suck up any ich tomites. The only mode of treatment going on right now is heat, tank is still at about 82 degrees. I don't think there is much else I can do save for keep an eye on them now.
If there are still some fish alive, I would do as you have set out and no more for the present. Monitor things and come back here if anything turns up. A slightly higher temp might do some good if ich is still present, depending upon the fish species remaining, but I'll leave this for the present.
I agree on the sudden osmotic changes. But, here is a situation where there is clearly trouble, and one has to weigh doing this or that or nothing, and take the consequences. I believe the significant water changes were the best action, and from your comments that seems to have been the case.
Now that the immediate issue is relaxed a bit, some background for my thinking might help explain things. The rest of this post is an excert from an article I wrote a couple of years back on the subject.
Freshwater Fish Physiology
Salt definitely interferes with the osmotic regulation of fish and plants. It should be left alone; nature regulated that part itself, by creating freshwater, brackish and saltwater fish. The vast majority of freshwater fish live in waters having no measurable salinity, and this has been crucial in the evolution of their physiology. Fresh water fish differ physiologically from salt water fish in several respects: their gills must be able to diffuse dissolved gasses while keeping the salts in the body fluids inside; their scales reduce water diffusion through the skin; and they also have well developed kidneys to reclaim salts from body fluids before excretion.
Freshwater fish have physiological mechanisms that permit them to concentrate salts within their bodies in a salt-deficient environment; marine fish, on the other hand, excrete excess salts in a hypertonic environment. Fish that live in both environments retain both mechanisms. Freshwater fish concentrate salts to compensate for their low salinity environment. They produce very dilute but copious urine—up to a third of their body weight each day—to rid themselves of excess water, while conducting active uptake of ions at the gills. [2]
The kidneys of freshwater fish have two functions: osmoregulation [discussed below] and hematopoiesis, which is the formation of blood celular components. Each fish species is adapted to the range of salts in its habitat water, and the kidneys function well within that range. The kidneys have to work harder whenever the salt content of the water in which the fish is living is greater than that of the fish’s preference, i.e., the natural habitat. The closer the water is to the species’ requirements, the easier it will be for the fish to maintain proper osmotic levels. One of the myths about the “benefit” of regular addition of salt is that it allegedly maintains an osmoregulatory balance; in point of fact, regular use of salt has the exact opposite effect and can cause bloating due to an osmotic imbalance. [3]
Osmoregulation is the technical term for the physiological mechanism fish use to control the amount of salt and water in their bodily fluids. As the name suggests, it's based on osmosis. Water is constantly passing through the cells of freshwater fish by osmosis in an attempt to equate the water inside the fish with the water in the aquarium. Freshwater fish regularly excrete this water through respiration and urination; the average fish will urinate 30% of its body mass every day. The more salt in the aquarium water, the greater the strain on the fish's kidneys, which in turn adds to the fish's stress in attempting to maintain their internal stability.
And salinity affects the amount of energy the fish must spend to maintain the physiological equilibrium—the complex chain of internal chemical reactions that keep the pH of the fish’s blood steady, its tissues fed, and the immune system functioning. When salinity increases beyond what the fish is designed by nature to handle, the fish must work harder and use more energy just to “keep going.” Laura Muha [4] likens this to driving a car up a steep hill—it takes more energy (gas) to maintain the same speed as driving on level ground, and it causes more “wear and tear.” This increased energy output is wearing down the fish, and the fish is not able to expend this crucial energy on other important functions. The growth rate is affected, a shorter lifespan will usually result, and there will be increased risk of various health problems along the way.
Fish and plants from mineral-poor waters do not appreciate being kept in slightly saline water conditions. Many of the most popular fish today, like cardinal tetra and rasbora, come from soft water habitats. Short term exposure to low salt concentrations across a few days or a couple of weeks may not do them major harm, but constant use of salt in their aquaria could cause problems. [5] In Weitzman et al. (1996), the authors mention that 100 ppm of salt is the maximum that can be tolerated by most characins, and some species show considerable stress leading to death at a level of 60 ppm. [6] To put this in perspective, 100 ppm is approximately equal to 0.38 gram of salt per gallon of water. One level teaspoon holds approximately six grams of salt, so just 1 teaspoon of salt in 16 gallons of water will cause stress, and in some species lead to death.
Another problem is that salt increases the total dissolved solids [TDS] in the water. An aquarium treated with one teaspoon of salt per gallon of water will have an established dose of 2400 ppm. Add to this the TDS occurring from calcium and magnesium salts [these make water “hard”], water conditioners and other additives, and you can end up with over 3000 ppm of TDS. [10] This is intolerable for most fish; even the very hard water in the African rift lakes does not contain more than 600 ppm TDS. And for fish from naturally soft and acidic water environments, this is very dangerous, for nowhere in nature does acidic water exist with a level of TDS anywhere near this. And the deviation from normal osmotic pressure that this creates is very harmful to all fish.
Thanks for posting that information on salt, all of that is very good to know and now I am considering getting rid of my aquarium salt altogether, or at the very least I won't ever use it unless deemed absolutely necessary (like for treating some kind of disease perhaps). It also may explain why my plecos died from suddenly bloating up at the belly... Right now the remaining fish are still stable, the silver dollar female is still having rapid breathing, but she is swimming around and occasionally flashing on the air bubbler hose. She still has ich cysts all over her body, temp right now is at about 83-84 degrees. The large kissing gourami is just resting on the bottom upright, going up for air as needed and moving now and again, he seems stable. His normally white fins are red and his skin still has some excess slime and redness to it. I found out his species is very sensitive to salt, so I likely did give the poor thing salt burns and I feel absolutely terrible for that :< The black skirt is also swimming around, still covered in ich and fins freying away, but it's hanging in there. Before I go to bed I am going to do a little 10% water change just to vacuum up the debris on the bottom glass of the tank, since I removed the gravel a bunch of stuff settled, from poo to dead snail shells, and maybe some ich tomotes. I am really scared about what tomorrow holds, I have a job and I have to be there for 8 hours unable to monitor my fish.... that's going to be nerve wracking. I'm afraid I'll get home and they'll all be dead. I pray that doesn't happen :< SO far the clean water approach is keeping my babies alive a little while longer.
Morning Update: Thelma, my female silverdollar was dead this morning at 8am. I had been checking on her all night but I had to sleep eventually and I dozed off at 2am. The water was once again cloudy, ammonia was .25ppm, no nitrite, less than 5 nitrate, PH 7.2, temperature about 83 degrees. Carbon is in the filters, no salt or meds at all int he tank since that was stressing the fish even more. Thelma was having labored breathing all day and night covered in ich cysts and I think they were in her gills and she suffocated :< The tiny blackskirt tetra is also dead, and the only remaining fish is the 8 inch pink kissing gourami who seems to have more red sores all over his skin and fins. I'm not sure it it is a secondary bacterial infection (probably is by this point) or burns from the salt I had used prior to being informed salt is not good for this fish (Or any freshwater fish).
Can anyone tell me what to do now to try and save my gourami? He's all I got left. He is 9 years old :< I have a 10 gallon hospital tank, should I move him to it and then start some sort of antibiotic? I have Nitrofurazol and Maracyn 2. Any advice is appreciated, otherwise I am about to have a 60 gallon tank and NO fish. To make matter worse I have to leave in 30 minutes to go to work, 8 hours I will be gone unable to monitor him. My stress is through the roof right now.
Can anyone tell me what to do now to try and save my gourami? He's all I got left. He is 9 years old :< I have a 10 gallon hospital tank, should I move him to it and then start some sort of antibiotic? I have Nitrofurazol and Maracyn 2. Any advice is appreciated, otherwise I am about to have a 60 gallon tank and NO fish. To make matter worse I have to leave in 30 minutes to go to work, 8 hours I will be gone unable to monitor him. My stress is through the roof right now.
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I just got home from work, the gourami is still alive, His tail fin is now worn away between the spines and his sores look bloodier. I am begging someone, anyone to tell me what to do now to save this fish. Please!
Update: So I have diagnosed his condition as hemorrhagic septicemia, a secondary bacterial infection caused from the ich and stress. No one will give me any info so I am going to move him to the 10 gallon QT once it's water parameters and temp are just right, then start antibiotics. It's a long shot at this point, but there's nothing else I can do. There are no fish vets anywhere near me, so I am on my own.
Update: So I have diagnosed his condition as hemorrhagic septicemia, a secondary bacterial infection caused from the ich and stress. No one will give me any info so I am going to move him to the 10 gallon QT once it's water parameters and temp are just right, then start antibiotics. It's a long shot at this point, but there's nothing else I can do. There are no fish vets anywhere near me, so I am on my own.
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