fantail needs help!!!

[ubermod]

Hi guys, i'm really in a fix with what is exactly wrong with my fantail goldfish. I have posted before on having problems with white spots appearing on fins, after searching and getting advice that this wasn't ich and to try a salt treatment to see how things go, i'm yet again back where i started.

These spots come and then fade after about a week, they dont appear to give her any problems but they are getting more regular now (see picture 1 on spots that she had on 18/07/09)

They got better a week later then i hit a big problem. Her left side seemed a little swollen then the next morning i woke to see her not using her pectoral fin and a white spot on her side. It looked like a spot humans get you could see under her scales the core all raised with a white head breaking through (pic 2) she was eating fine but very low a not moving much due to the location where it was. I went to my local pet shop and was advised to treat with a bacterial med (king british bacterial control) i added this then realised the next day that maybe this was internal? and since the thing had changed and was weeping the next day (pic 3) went to another (better) fish expert who looking at the photo said it could be an ulcer. I was given king british internal bacteria meds and adviced to add carbon and pull the remaining meds out do a water change remove carbon then start new treatment, also adding melafix. As it weeped and shrunk she used her fin more and it was almost gone within 5days just a scab grey mark left now.

The meds are a two dose meds so i added the second as it was clearing but yet again new spots came on her tail fin again (pics 4&5) also at this time her side started to swell again (you can see in pic4) and she had pop eye that morning that went later in the day. The swelling got worse and i thought it could be dropsy since part of her scales where sticking up, so after the second dose and four day rest before being able to add again i continued using melafix i have just put my last dose in and she has developed these spots again where she was swollen, two spots near each other that have merged together now, this is weeping again today like before and she also has the spots on her tail fin again (pics 6&7) shes eating fine and is behaving normal doesn't seem ill at all, but i just dont know what to do or what it is i'm dealing with?

sorry for the long question guys, also her tank is a 22gallon shes lives in it alone and all water quality is good no ammonia, no nitrite, 10ppm nitrate, answered all this and tank maintenance in last post if you want to check.

Please help guys.

 

[mel_20_20]

You really have provided some very good pictures and very good information to help with this issue. I'm not experienced with goldies, and I'm sure Kashta, Flaringshutter, or Lupin will be along to help with this problem.

Water params are excellent. It seems to me that there's a bacterial infection going on in her system, especially since you say she has developed popeye a bit.

Can you get a broad spectrum antibiotic to treat her with for a full course of a couple of weeks? I know antibiotics are limited in the U.K., which is where I'm guessing you are located.

Are you able to get Maracyn and Maracyn II. These two in combination give good coverage for the treatment of both gram negative and gram positive bacterial infection.

I hope the goldie experts will be along soon to help with this. I hope things get better for your pretty girl. She is a beauty.

Keep us posted and continue with the excellent pictures. Those will help the goldie gurus figure out what this is and be able to recommend treatment options for you.

Best wishes.

 

[geekboy]

I have a pair of comet goldfish that developed similar-looking spots on the tail, which spread and multiplied. The spots started white, became red bumps, and eventually broke the skin and caused tailrot and septicemia. Perhaps something similar could be causing the tail spots (and the body spot) on your goldy.

I also treated for bacterial infection. Something that I would try to source would be a medicated food, since they help to better treat the source of internal infections. I agree with Melody that Maracyn and Maracyn II should be a sound choice for antibiotics. This combination is very broad spectrum and should catch most infections. In the case of my fish, this treatment was very disappointing, but results may vary.

Other medications I tried (with charcoal cleanup in between) included Kanamycin (Kanaplex), which is absorbed through the skin and can help an internal infection even if the fish stops eating. I also used Triple Sulfa, which was perhaps the most effective in my case.

Ultimately, for about a month medications failed to "cure" my fish, and they had to fight the infection on their own. I stopped medication altogether. There was a brief flare-up of the symptoms, but the infected areas seemed to inflame, weep, and then heal up better for it. Both comets have been reintroduced to my main tank and are looking much better. Your mileage may vary.

 

[corrieberry]

I don't know about what's wrong but I do know that you can't get Maracyn and other variants in the UK. Your best bet is either importing from the US or using Interpret products. I struggle in my LFS - yours might be better. Take a very long list of meds which are recommended (if everyone would oblige to give them) cos it's quite likely you will only find one or two, if any.

 

[Kashta]

Hi guys, i'm really in a fix with what is exactly wrong with my fantail goldfish. I have posted before on having problems with white spots appearing on fins, after searching and getting advice that this wasn't ich and to try a salt treatment to see how things go, i'm yet again back where i started.

These spots come and then fade after about a week, they dont appear to give her any problems but they are getting more regular now (see picture 1 on spots that she had on 18/07/09)

They got better a week later then i hit a big problem. Her left side seemed a little swollen then the next morning i woke to see her not using her pectoral fin and a white spot on her side. It looked like a spot humans get you could see under her scales the core all raised with a white head breaking through (pic 2)

she was eating fine but very low a not moving much due to the location where it was. I went to my local pet shop and was advised to treat with a bacterial med (king british bacterial control) i added this then realised the next day that maybe this was internal? and since the thing had changed and was weeping the next day (pic 3)

went to another (better) fish expert who looking at the photo said it could be an ulcer. I was given king british internal bacteria meds and adviced to add carbon and pull the remaining meds out do a water change remove carbon then start new treatment, also adding melafix. As it weeped and shrunk she used her fin more and it was almost gone within 5days just a scab grey mark left now.

The meds are a two dose meds so i added the second as it was clearing but yet again new spots came on her tail fin again (pics 4&5)

also at this time her side started to swell again (you can see in pic4) and she had pop eye that morning that went later in the day. The swelling got worse and i thought it could be dropsy since part of her scales where sticking up, so after the second dose and four day rest before being able to add again i continued using melafix i have just put my last dose in and she has developed these spots again where she was swollen, two spots near each other that have merged together now, this is weeping again today like before and she also has the spots on her tail fin again (pics 6&7)

shes eating fine and is behaving normal doesn't seem ill at all, but i just dont know what to do or what it is i'm dealing with?

sorry for the long question guys, also her tank is a 22gallon shes lives in it alone and all water quality is good no ammonia, no nitrite, 10ppm nitrate, answered all this and tank maintenance in last post if you want to check.

Please help guys.

Thanks for posting the specifics and all those photos with your question, ubermod. (She's very beautiful.)

Since you've posted about her before and there seems to be various recurring problems, I skimmed back through your other threads to get a little history. As I was skimming through these threads, please correct me if I get some of these details wrong.

You've said that you got this fish several months ago (April/May or so). In the time since, you've moved her from a 7 gallon to a 10 gallon and now to a 22 gallon tank. You've mentioned water parameters many times and each time they're exactly the same.... good quality.. parameters are fine... ammonia/nitrite at zero with nitrates at .10 ppm. And (aside from a few white spots that have come and go, a little localized swelling at the site of the small bump, and bulging eyes) you've also described her as otherwise behaving normally... she's active, alert, eats well, and so on. Seems you've also already treated (usually with meds going along from one to another) for just about everything except flukes. From this information plus the photos you've been able to show us, there're a few things I'm wondering about and I have more (inevitable.. lol) questions to ask. Her gills and fin development look good and there's no prominent blood veins or deterioration.

At this point, I suspect the underlying problem still falls under basic goldfish care. So there must be something about the conditions that isn't right yet. Let's start there and still talk about symptoms and causes, as well.

First off, it's great that you've been able to upgrade the tank size and that you're so diligent about tank maintenance. But while the 22 gallon tank provides adequate water volume (depending on filtration of course), she's being kept as a solitary fish. Since goldfish are so sociable by nature, she really needs the companionship and interaction she would get from fellow (goldfish) tankmates. Prolonged isolation by itself is a fairly high stress factor. And high stress, of course, can lead to other problems. So for this reason, we generally recommend a much larger tank with 3 or more goldfish be kept together.

Your water parameters sound good, but I didn't see anything you've posted that gives actual test readings (which vary day by day) and you've not mentioned what kind of test you're using or how often you take these readings. One problem you may be facing (particularly if your test kit has expired or if you're relying on test strips instead of a liquid drop test method) is the results you get may be inaccurate. Your picture show a bare bottm tank with what looks to be just a few plastic plants. That being the case, the status/stability of your tank cycle is extremely dependent on the filter media as the host for beneficial bacteria. I would suspect that your parameters aren't nearly as consistent as you think they are.... small 20 gallon tanks are also inherently less stable for water quality and temperature than a larger tank would be. So... the recurring problems you're seeing could result from nothing more than variable water conditions, stress, and isolation.

We should also look closer and her diet, so let us know what you've been feeding her, how much, and how often.

Something I wondered about after looking at the photos... how big is she (from nose to tail) and how much has she grown in size in the time that you've had her? Also, where did you get her from? And how old is she? When I saw photo #3, her body size just looked really small in relation to the diameter of her eyes (which may indicate stunted growth). Her fins/tail also seem to be well developed for her to be very young/still a juvenile.

The bulging eyes (popeye) you've noticed can have several causes.. poor water quality, bacterial infection, and oversaturation of nitrogen (known as gas bubble disease), nutritional deficiency, or a combination of these factors. It could also be another outward sign of fluid retention (attributed either to stunting or bacterial infection). I'd look very closely at whatever you're feeding her now and would probably switch her to medicated foods if you can (look for one containing kanamycin), along with providing a widely varied diet.

Sometimes, an excess of nitrogen present can cause gas bubbles in the blood which may collect behind the eyes, causing them the bulge out a little. The best way to prevent this from happening is to make sure there's a lot of water surface agitation from the filter return or by adding an air stone.

From what you've described, the lump on her side originated under the skin and broke through to become an open sore which healed over afterward. This could be caused by a few different things, too.. unfortunately.. infection, injury, parasites. Do you ever see her flashing or rubbing against the sides, bottom, or decor?

I know there's a lot of think about here, but let us know the answers you can to the questions I've asked so far. Then, we'll just go from there.

 

[mel_20_20]

YAY!!! Kashta!! The calvary is here!! You are in good hands now!

 

[Flaringshutter]

I've been mulling this one over for a few days now, looking through my books and trying to figure out what this could be. It's got me stumped!

The best I can figure is that this is an external parasite, since you describe the process of it swelling and then bursting. Also since Kashta mentioned that you got her a few months ago. She may have been raised in a pond where snails or birds passed on the eggs of a parasite. I agree with Kashta that we need to know a little more about your setup and maintenance, as well as her past behavior, but I'm not sure this is directly related to basic care. I'm sure it is NOT bacterial. Nothing bacterial causes the swelling and bursting process. This is almost always a parasitic problem.

The good news is that most parasites that cause bursting cysts have a complex life cycle. Which means that the larva that cause the cysts to appear will never fully develop into adult parasites - they need another host like a bird or snail to complete the cycle. The fish is just the first stage. The bad news is that they can be hard to treat since they form that protective bubble-like cyst.

Before you do anything, we need that background info that Kashta recommended you provide. But I'm going to tentatively recommend an antiparasite medication, a full-tank powder or liquid med plus an anti-parasite medicated food.

Any thoughts from the other mods, Lupe, Kashta?

 

[ubermod]

Thanks everyone for responding and taking the time to help give some information.

Ok, i've had "Wanda" for two years three months. The first year and a bit she lived in a 10gallon tank, she was approx 2.5 inches when i first had her, she was a gift from the local pet store. She has now been in the new 22 uk gallon tank since Feb of this year and is approx 4.5 inches in size and i say shes just over two and a half years old maybe three.

In answer to water quality questions, i have used both liqiud drops and test strips to monitor parameters and found both to give same readings so i now use API 5in1 test strips and API ammonia strips. My tank readings have only altered at the start of each set up then settled into a fix reading- currently (GH 180ppm- KH 120ppm- N02 0ppm- N03 10ppm NH3/4 0ppm- Ph 7.5) the only thing that changes in the tank is the temp since i dont use a heater as the room temp is rather constant and stays between 69-75 deg. I test the water on the day before i do a 20%water change and the day after the change just so i get an overall reading. (so i'm testing it every seven days, but have tested it every other day during med applications and it all remains steady)

I'd say my tank is only about 60% bare bottom due to stones instead of gravel. (see pic) so i guess this holds some beneficial bacteria aswell as the filter (fluval U3 mixed media, sponge, carbon, bio nodes) i was thinking of adding a tank mate, not possible in her smaller tank so when i upgraded was going to but in light of recent events thought best not to.

I feed her tetrafin quality goldfish falkes (soaked for at least 10mins before feed) king british bloodworms as a treat and fast her one day a week then follow up with blanched peas the next day. Unfortunately we cant get medicated food or maracyn here in the UK, its mainly interpet and kingbritish products.

So an update of how she is, the swelling and spots have completely gone, healing well. It wept for two days then went flat, no scale damage so perhaps it was external? I have never seen her flashing or rubbing so what ever it is doesn't seem to bother her to much. Those spots on her tail unfortunately look like they could be fin rot, the one is now a tiny hole and alot of white edges have appeared. I did the recommended 30% water change after completing use of bacterial meds and have added new carbon. I didnt want to put any more meds in and give her a break but the fin rot is getting slightly worse so i'm stuck what to do, any ideas? Plus the last three days she is just on the bottom of the tank, she seemes to have crashed only moving to eat then returning back, its like she has no energy, its starting to concern me she certainly isn't herself.

So thats what happening now any advice would be great and i can provide any more info if needed, once again thanks all from me and Wanda.

 

[Lupin]

To be honest and most unfortunately, I was also as baffled as Iris (Flaringshutter) and Kashta and have tried to recall where exactly I've known those white circles to appear mysteriously and unexpectedly. Do you have access to microscopes near you, Ubermod? Perhaps a skin scrape of the affected areas and then magnification images could help. What do you think, Flaringshutter? This may help us further drive a conclusion between bacterial and parasitic infection. I do agree with you that this may not be bacterial. I have not seen cases of bacterial infections bursting after swelling either.

Unfortunately, Wanda seems severely stunted I am sorry to say. Kashta correctly pointed this out. At 2-3 years of age and still approximately 3-4 inches in size, the fantail should have been about 6-8 inches by now. That indicated her suspicion by the eye-body size proportion. When a fish has disproportionately larger eyes to their body size, that is clear indicator in several specie as stunting. This is unfortunately the norm with most fish that grow too large for inappropriate housing systems.

 

[Flaringshutter]

Well, I'm glad to hear Wanda is at least looking a bit better, if not acting better yet. Your tank is gorgeous, by the way! At least she has a nice place to live.

I'm still stumped. A microscope would definitely help us here. This may be one situation where we're looking at unusual symptoms for something simple. She is stunted and it's possible that fact is complicating diagnosis, making things worse. It's so hard to tell.

For now, I would leave the water clean, let your bacterial colony recover and just be sure you keep up with your water changes. Stop the meds for now and see if that finrot improves. It may just be an opportunistic infection that set in while she was fighting off the weeping cyst problem. You can get an antiparasite med from interpet, but the active ingredients are malachite green and formaldehyde, and those are way too strong for a small problem like this. I can't find the active ingredients for King British products listed anywhere, and I wouldn't try anything without knowing exactly what it is first.

Best of luck to you and your little goldie!