filter crash, any suggestions?

The pH crash shut down the nitrification bacteria. Whether or not it killed them is likely to be a lot more complex, with large individual variation depending on the the already stated length of time exposed to the very acid conditions (optimum for these FW bacteria is 7.5 and above), the age of the colony (for some reasons not fully explored or explained, new colonies are much more sensitive than long-established ones), and no doubt other factors as yet unknown. The ammonia oxidizers at least do have a non-spore idle condition during which they are not dividing and not comsuming much either, which is likely a response to inadequate or suboptimum living conditions, but how long they can hold there is poorly understood/studied, as is what reactivates them. The net is that your nitrifiers may or may not have been killed, and as usual, the only proof is how well and quickly they recover.

Many folks have detectable and non-trivial nitrate in the tap water. This is the limiting factor on how low you can maintain nitrate titer in unplanted tanks. In high-light carbon-supplementd planted tanks, this obviously it is less of an issue, but would still be dependent on the levels in the source water. In lower tech planted tanks, the situation is more similar to unplanted situations- it depends on the titer from the tap as the nitrate requirement of the plants would be significantly lower than in faster-growth situations. As you do not report this from other tanks, and previously had very low nitrate, it likely is not an issue in this situation.

Prime and other such complexers are pretty stable. The ammonia is likely there until the bacteria or plants split it off from the complexer. There will eventually be bacterial or other breakdown of the complexer (chemical) itself, but any study on that is likely to be and remain highly proprietary. The Seachen test can distinguish between complexed and free ammonium ion. I don't know of any other which can. I don't use the test myself.

Nitrite toxicity is fairly pH independent. Ammonia toxicity in tanks is highly pH dependent. This is all due to the balance between the dissolved gas NH3 and the ionic form NH4+. The ammonia NH3 is toxic, the ion is not very toxic at all. The balance between the two forms is pH and temperature dependent. There are tables on the web which give the relative proportions based on pH and temperature, but I don't have the URL handy. WetmanNY's like was broken some weeks back and I don't know if he has gotten it restored.

I am uncertain of the Prime effect, if any on nitrate. What would be the point? It is already fully oxidized.

Nitrite is not fully oxidized, but its toxicity is easily blocked by chloride ion (Cl-) from ordinary salt. It is a simple competitive inhibition for binding sites. I don't know if Prime includes chloride.
 
Gosh, Dahlia, you sure got yourself a pickle there! I wouldn't know where to begin with figuring out what happened then. That low fish load, and frequent partial water changes (couple a week or better) would lead me to think that a pH crash wouldn't be the culprit. Ammonia in the water is a terrible thing! If I had any ammonia in my tap after treating (or even before treating!) I'd probably consider a RO/DI water filtration system standard equipment in my home. It's easier to use that and re-constitute it to your preference. I do understand that's a decent investment cost, though.

Man what would you do if you had fry or wanted to try breeding fish? Doing water changes every day would actually make things WORSE until the bacteria caught up with the ammonia count, but then there would be more Nitrate than normal. Both of these are undesirable for fry tanks (or any tank IMO). Tough one to deal with. I do enjoy being able to do as many water changes as I want to keep organics and Nitrogen compounds down.
 
Sumpin'fishy - complexed ammonia - i.e., after Prime or Amquel treatment - is harmless to man or beast, or to fry. Folks with chloramine do not have to give up water changes or breeding fish, not do they require RO or RO/DI (unless for other reasons). They only need to know and understand what they are doing.
 
Ok, maybe I'm misunderstanding what she was saying. :confused: I thought what she was getting at was that she had such a high concentration of Chloramine in her water that even after treating and nullifying SOME ammonia, there was still SOME LEFT in toxic free form. Does her test only give the Total Ammonia count? I personally use PRIME and also use a Seachem Ammonia test, I NEVER detect ANY ammonia .....before, or after treatment. That is why I misunderstood.

I understand what you are telling me, and feel like I have a good working knowledge of how things work, even without any formal chemistry knowledge. Am I right in assuming that her test is picking up complexed (treated, harmless) ammonia also? If so then that explains it. If not, maybe I have a brick for a head?!:rolleyes:
 
Almost all test kits other than Seachem's read TAN, total ammonia nitrogen, and do not distinguish between complexed and free. So, your head may or may not be a brick. :)

But she did lose nitrification also from pH crash - made life more complex.
 
Quite right, quite right! Didn't know that most other kits did this. I've also used a Sera Ammonia Test kit, and again, never saw any ammonia using Prime, Tap Water Conditioner, Amquel, or Stresscoat. Ya learn something new every day! :idea2:
 
Hey, thanks for all this info. I did mean that my test kit just picks up ammonia in general, whether it is fixed or not. Also, I have had luck with fry before with this water. I am just having problems with this one tank.

I went and picked up some crushed coral yesterday. I chose this over the aragonite since I'm not shooting for a super high pH and the aragonite is supposed to be the same thing but dissipates faster? I got enough crushed coral to bring my pH up to 7.5 which seems like a nice stable place to be. I'm adding it in parts slowly. I've got to go test my water because I haven't had the chance all day. This just hasn't been my week for animals... this morning my cat was hit and killed by a car. My boyfriend came to tell me while I was cooking turkey for the family. :( I'm hoping next week goes much better.
 
Crushed coral will do the job, but requires more acid to dissovle than does aragonite, so is a tad less responsive, but it will work.

Sorry for your bad news Thanksgiving day. At least the tank is coming back.
 
Good news on my tank... the ammonia was at 0 yesterday and I never saw a nitrite spike so I suppose my entire biological filter had not been killed off. The pH seems to be holding steady as well. I didn't lose any more fish. Thanks again for all the help on this!
 
AquariaCentral.com