fish rubbing against rocks/gravel...

another question, tmy said there were no white spots. if it is ich, wouldn't there be white spots?

In the case of a heavy outbreak, white spots will be visible. Most if not all internal parasites prefer the gills. The fish's gills are not protected with a slime coat, and furthermore they are rich with blood. Many fish are resisitive to ich, and almost all fish will build up some immunuty if faced with repeated attacks. With healthy fish, it is not uncommon for ich to never show up externally, but it will continually cycle through the three stages of life, and attach in the gills. This is precisely how ich hides for months or even years and then shows up as soon as something else stresses the fish. Since flashing is one of the most common symptoms, it is usually cause for concern.

I still think amonia should be checked first, and it is necessary to know if chloramines or chlorine are in the water supply. The flashing is predominant right after water changes and this does lend to improperly treated chloramines to some degree. I would only treat for ich after water conditions are verified as good.

If you are unable to find out whether or not Chloramines are in use, my reccomendation is to buy a bottle of "prime" water conditioner and use that exclusively. It will break the Chloramine bond and detoxify the ammonia that is left. If you switch to prime and the symptoms still occur after a few days I'd go the next step and treat for ich.

There are of course a lot of variables and possibilities when flashing is the only sign of a problem. Attack the most likely ones sytematically and take you time to make sure one thing is eliminated before starting to work on the next step. This will be easier on your fish and also when you do stop the problem you can be reasonably sure of what it was. If ammonia burn is the problem and you add salt and raise temps it will do more to harm than help things. However if you start by elimanating ammonia as a possible problem then you can go on to the next most likely and so on.


I have not kept White clouds, but As a general rule the concern with raising temperature is the oxygen level available. The warmer the water the less oxygen it carries. Most cold water fish require high oxygen levels. Normally if I am raising temperatures on any oxygen sensative fish, I just increase surface turbulence and circulation. Remember that the salt will kill the ich no matter what, raising the temp speeds up the life cycle of ich and therefore shortens the treatment period. Ich can be treated without the temperature increase it just takes much longer.

Dave
 
Thanks for all ur help.... Is it true that if theres ammonia that theres a lot of bubbles? I think I have a lot of bubbles on top but I also have lots of oxygen ( I have a 50gal penguin,and a 30 gal penguin both with biowheels) I dunno?

Thanks a lot for ur help dude
 
another question....what if you hvae live plants? will the salt kill or injure the plants?

and thank you, dave, for such an informative response!
 
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Ive turned down the temp because there not flashing AT ALL now..... Ive been running the tank very low on water and letting the 2 powerfilters make lots of movement and air... They would have atleast flashed as much or more if I had the heat on right? It seems like they are doing a lot better... So is it probably chlorine?
 
Dave,
Could you describe what flashing looks like in more detail? Is it when a fish smacks itself against an object and then jumps away like it's been burned?

Could a sudden spurt from one end of the tank to the other or into a wall be construed as flashing?

Roan
 
fish will also flash becuase of changes in PH or practically any other water parameter and he said it had tended to happen more often after water changes, sounds like a water quality issue to me.
 
Yeah I did it by degree for about 5-6 hours... Thanks for the info tho..
 
Could you describe what flashing looks like in more detail? Is it when a fish smacks itself against an object and then jumps away like it's been burned?

Could a sudden spurt from one end of the tank to the other or into a wall be construed as flashing?

By my definition, the first behavior you describe is flashing. The other I would affectionately term as panic. My definitions may be incorrect as Flashing is somewhat of an assigned term that is loosly used in many cases.

fish will also flash becuase of changes in PH or practically any other water parameter and he said it had tended to happen more often after water changes, sounds like a water quality issue to me.

Fish don't read Ph. My tanks fluctuate from 6.6 to 7.2 every day, and my change water is at 7.6-7.8. When I do my weekly water changes I usually do 40-80% depending on the tank and the need. I do not see any flashing from PH changes.

rapid change in dissolved solids levels will cause irritation and problem, but in a tank that recieves steady maintenanace with the same tap water each time, there should not be a big change in solids levels.
In a nutshell water changes should not cause stress unless the tank has been neglected, the temperature is off, or the disinfectant used is not dealt with properly.

tmy420 have you checked out your local water comonaies website to see if you are dealing with chlorine or Chloramines yet ?

Dave
 
daveedka said:
By my definition, the first behavior you describe is flashing. The other I would affectionately term as panic. My definitions may be incorrect as Flashing is somewhat of an assigned term that is loosly used in many cases.
Then this is worrisome to me. Jakers didn't even start to flash until day 2 of the treatment. Today is day 5. There's no visible sign of ich on him, but he's still flashing occasionally. He also does that panicked run I asked about.

This tells me that he either has ich inside his gills (possible?) that I cannot see or there is something else wrong.

I've dropped the temperature down to 83 from 86 but am continuing the salt. My thought is that the continued heat may be irritating him a bit, which would account for the panicked run.

I really don't want to hurt the otos (they look anything BUT hurt and are eating like pigs). Should I keep it like this for another week? Up the temperature again? What do you think?

If I up the temperature again, I'm going to hook up a small air pump to a micro bubble diffuser so I can be sure there is enough oxygen.

Roan
 
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