Fish TB, Please, nead advise!

Snake Eyez--human forms of TB is not the same thing. The TB in fish, which can be transmitted to humans, does not infect the lungs at all, but rather results in calcareous growths on the joints.

Sorry--I meant you should remove any fish that shows signs immediately, not kill off the entire tank right now.
 
OrionGirl said:
Snake Eyez--human forms of TB is not the same thing. The TB in fish, which can be transmitted to humans, does not infect the lungs at all, but rather results in calcareous growths on the joints.
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Gotcha. Sorry about my misunderstanding of the subject. Thanks for the clarification. :)
 
It sounds harsh, but I'd go with euthanizing all the fish and sterilyzing the tank, too. I had a tank into which fish TB was introduced (I'm pretty sure; I never did any microscopic analyses of fish tissue, but the symptoms were classic). It intitially wiped out about 75% of the community tank. Then, no additional fish became ill, and I thought I was out of the woods. I added some new fish to that tank after many months, and all the new fish became ill with the same disease. Several fish continued to be symptom free. I repeated this cycle once more before I began to suspect the fish that lived were maybe asymptomatic carriers, and they infected each new batch of fish. (I should add that, during the course of this, I researched the disease, learned about mycobacterial infections, how difficult it is to treat them with either UV or antibiotics, how they can infect human tissue thru cuts, etc.)

Anyway, because I'm sympathetic and I couldn't bring myself to euthanize these fish, I ended keeping just the survivors by themselves. Caring for these fish was a pain, because I had to not only assume mycobacteria continued to live in these hosts and I (or my kids) were in danger if we put our hands into the tank, but I also has to worry about cross-contamination to other tanks from my nets, Python, etc. The fish went on to live for several years and it was a royal pain caring for them.

If I had to repeat it, I wouldn't. The risks aren't worth it.

HTH,
Jim
 
So Jim, have you never seen any symptoms of fish TB since that time?
Gets to be very scary, reading all the info, as far as the risks of repeating this even if I go that route. Some say 30% of fish are exposed already and that alot of those "unexplained" fish deaths can be attributed to it.

Seems every other time I go to Petco half their stock is not for sale, under observation for some reason or other. Last time I was there the fish were for sale but I observed several obvious cases of neon tetra disease.

I bought
all these fish at the same LFS which is privately owned and although I would love to blame them can't really, these symptoms take months to show up. Even quarrentining them, which I do plan to do in the future, may not be effective.
I also am going by primarily symptoms and I perhaps could attribute all of them to something else except that bent spine. There doesn't seem to be any other thing that causes that in a mature fish.

I would really hate not to ever be able to buy more fish! Another large tank to house these is really not an option.
 
this is the one disease i fear more than any other :eek: - i'm almost paranoid to buy new fish cause i have such a nicely established tank - i will Quarantine everytyhing for 4-6 weeks in hopes of eliminating any sick stock
 
sillyputty said:
So Jim, have you never seen any symptoms of fish TB since that time?
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Nope. All the fish from that tank have passed, and I sterilized the tank and filter thoroughly and threw out all the other stuff that was in the tank.

I have also become much more careful about where I purchase fish from, and I never add a fish to an existing tank without a 6-8 week quarantine. I learned my lesson. I suppose it would be possible to get a carrier that wasn't showing symptoms, but I've not had that experience.

Jim
 
So there really isnt a whole lot more to say on this topic but I had a few things I thought I would add, in the interest of sharing.

Mycobacterium sp. infections are quite common, especially in marine systems, and lots of fish are asymptomatic carriers, as mentioned. Jim's experience of having fish live YEARS after the tank was infected isnt that unnatural, many many systems in public aquaria are infected, known to be infected, and are treated the same way he dealt with his tank -- painstaking attention to cross contamination prevention and prevention of infecting himself. Babies born in Myco positive tanks are either immediately deformed and do not survive, or live with the infection and carry on as if nothing is wrong. It very much depends on the individual immune system.

I have had Mycobacterium marinum infections and I know at least two others who have had it. All of us are hobbyist and professional aquarists in some manner and are exposed to lots of fish and lots of tanks. Probability and rates of exposure being what they are, it just seemed bound to happen. My buddy Rich did not recognize the symptoms around a cut and let the infection go until his lymph system became involved and the infection slowly moved up his arm. He was on antibiotics for just under seven months, and he's a young guy. M. marinum seems to be able to live in the human bloodstream because of our blood's somewhat similarity to saltwater chemistry. When I got the infection I had a simple cat scratch that just wasnt healing properly. After a week of non-closure I went straight to a dermatologist and told him I thought I'd been exposed, he was able to confirm it by culturing/screening/etc. I was on antibiotics for about three months..

Anyway, I guess I'm saying that its not something to play with and if you choose to be compassionate and not condemn the tank and start over, be so very careful. I would even invest in some latex gloves to use when working around the tank. I certainly learned my lesson and always use gloves when I work in tanks that are not my own. And even with my tanks I'm practically neurotic about washing my hands. ;) I hope that was all useful to someone...

>Sarah
 
Unfortunately I do not know of any practical hobbyist available tests. Necropsies (autopsies of animals) need to be done as soon as possible after natural death to prevent contamination of the body with bacteria, etc., and prevent breakdown of organs. Usually fish that are very sick are sacrificed in the interest of the health of the tank system and are autopsied to assess organ systems status. So, unless you have symptomatic fish, or just had a fish die, a necropsy probably cant be done. To decide it if was Mycobacterium the person doing the necropsy would likely take culture samples from infected tissues in the fish and would culture these to determine their morphology, acceptance/resistance to stains (such as Gram -/+) and other characteristics - Myco, for instance, is an acid fast bacillus type. They would also very likely run tests on the DNA of the culture (such as PCR-RFLP) to absolutely verify the identity.

As far as testing the water.. I really dont know if Mycobacterium species reside in any part of the system other than within the fish. (You may try looking for info on this disease's "reservoir" in google.) I do not believe that they last very long outside of tissue and I have not come across any info that says they are released into the water by the fish or through feces. I also dont know if they are capable of going dormant and reblooming.

Maybe I'll refocus my research and develop a kit for aquarists for this kind of thing... I'm sorry to be just a source of bad news SillyPutty.. I know how hard it is to hear that you should be putting down all of your fish. But really, I would put your own health before their welfare and start from square one. If they aren't endangered, very rare or carrying genes for research then it really isnt worth all the risk to you. Or at least that's how I feel having had this infection and knowing how hard it was on my body. (I didnt feel unwell, but it took three months to get over and I'm a young healthy woman.. I can't imagine how this would progress in older people or those with compromised immune systems.)

Oh and I wanted to add this little note - when sterilizing tanks its a good idea to go through the bleach rinsing (at least 65% solution) and then spray all the glass in the tank, the substrate, all the filters and housing/etc. with isopropyl alcohol or ethanol to completely contact any pathogens that may have survived the bleach. (Unthinkable, but there are some reports that Myco species can withstand bleach in short intervals.) Allow the alcohol to totally dry for a day or so before thinking about setting it all back up.

Still your choice of course, but I just wanted you to have all the info that I at least have. :)
>Sarah
 
This is some what off subject.

Well I have been treated for TB in 2000 – 2001. This happened after getting contacted with TB whale on the Rescue Squad. The treatment for it is 8 to 10 months of a pill (INH) a day. The pill eats away at your liver making you get blood tests every 2 weeks to a month depending on your body. The stuff inside INH is part antibiotics and part a low grade form of TB. After you have taken the INH you are more or less amend to getting TB.

As for TB and fish I have no idea.
 
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