Fishless cycle + Biospira

[anonapersona]

Lotsa bacteria food (5ppm ammonia) + Little bit of bacteria(1oz of Bio Spira) = Lotsa bacteria (which will eventualy cycle the tank)

Unless the very, very high ammonia actually kills off the bacteria you are trying to culture. The nitrite processing bacteria do not like ammonia, it inhibits their growth. This is why the ammonia spike has to got almost to zero before the nitrite spike starts to go down in cycling. In fact, killing those bacterai may add to the ammonia level in the tank, sending you over the edge into ammonia overdose.

Have you even read the entire thread?

Oh, yeah, I have. It is just this thing I have, when I see someone who asks about stuff and when they get advice that conflicts with what they have already decided to do then they say, "Gee, none of this is any help."

Just for reference, in case YOU haven't read the entire thread...

6 (7 including me) people have told you not to do what you've decided to do, 4 have given opinions to support what you want to do.

Of those, Rob1eddy (post 2) said follow the directions it works, from his experience. Ozziegt (post 4 and later) said don't add it to the ammonia in the tank, had done that and failed. Ghostshrimp55 (post 6) has expienrence with it and said do not add to tank now. Benson (post 10)said do not. RoanArt (post 11) said it works 4 out of 5 times when you follow directions. RocakabillyChick (post 38) said don't do it, she seems to be in that toxic ammonia zone after doing what you are planning to do. Many of these have stated that they did exactly what you are trying to do and it failed.

On the other hand, Beeker (post 5 and later) admitted that he had a pH crash when he did that, but thinks it is OK to do, but later says he thinks BioSpira does not work. ParadoxLiz (post 20) says you ought to do it, but she is doing ammonia with live plants and so she is heading for a problem with algae and doesn't even realize it. And Mishi (post 36) says do it.

So, it looks to me like you have already decided that adding BioSpira to a tank with a very high ammonia reading is just fine, in spite of two people saying that they did exactly that and that you should not do it and one saying he did that and had a pH crash and it failed but you should do it.

I am just amazed that you are bothering to ask when you don't care what the answer is.

However, if you would ask and then pay close attention to what is said, and think about it, you might have been able to have fish for the last 4 weeks now, instead of just playing around with test tubes.

But, hey, do whatever you want, it's your time, it's your money.

 

[Roan Art]

. . .ParadoxLiz (post 20) says you ought to do it, but she is doing ammonia with live plants and so she is heading for a problem with algae and doesn't even realize it . . .

Could you please elaborate on the above ammonia plant thingy?

Also,
Is this the same Anonapersona that is a moderator at plantedtanks.net?

Roan

 

[anonapersona]

Could you please elaborate on the above ammonia plant thingy?

Also,
Is this the same Anonapersona that is a moderator at plantedtanks.net?

Roan

Yes, Anonapersona from Planted Tank. Great place, didn't recognize you from there. Sorry, often I don't look at names.

OK, we have seen that adding ammonia to a planted tank often will lead to a huge algae problem. Not always, but often.

First, all plants take in ammonia, they really like it. So, if you have plants, and the lighting is such that they are growing, it can take a LOT of ammonia to get the ammonia levels up to the 3 to 5 ppm that fishless cycling suggests.

So you are perking right along, adding ammonia every day, when suddenly the other nutrients bottom out. Plants like a balanced diet; nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium. Ammonia is heavy in nitrogen, NH4. But as the plants grow they use up everything else at the same time, but you are only adding ammonia. You also need the trace elements, phosphorus (P), potassium (K): NPK the holy trinity in fertilization [see you DO need chemistry in "real life"]. Suddenly you have no more P, and/or K, and/or traces (the minor requirements).

It is as if there was a banquet on the table and the guests only will eat a balanced diet. When the meat runs out, they won't eat the potatoes and vegetables. Those extra nutrients sit on that table until the cockroaches come out, scavenging the excess nutrients. The scavengers are algae. Some like this leftover, some like the other.

Now, ParadoxLiz may not have enough plants to use up nutrients, or maybe they are not actually growing fast enough to use up nutrients if lighting is low. But, it is quite possible that she will have an algae breakout before the cycling is done due to the imbalance of nutrients. Green water is most likely with high ammonia levels. The spores (or whatever) came in on the plants.

 

[ozziegt]

Exactly. It takes time to cycle. BioSpira should shorten the cycling time, if it is viable. The whole process of cycling and keeping fish in general is one of patience...there is no such thing as an instant cycle with a new tank and filter.

Bio spira does it. It works.

 

[Roan Art]

Yes, Anonapersona from Planted Tank. Great place, didn't recognize you from there. Sorry, often I don't look at names.

Actually, I'm not from there
I was doing a background check on you *whistles innocently*

Seriously. There's a lot of bs out there. And here. Sometimes it's hard to know who to believe and who not to believe. Some people SOUND like they know what they are talking about, but it's hard to know if they really do know because we don't know, y'know? Heh.

So, I know who *you* are, and yah, you bloody well DO know what you are talking about.

I'm listening, big time!

Hope the above doesn't offend. I think I'm trying to explain why some of us are being argumentative with you.

As an aside, I *will* be visiting plantedtank.net and doing a lot of reading. I love a planted tank and obviously the key to a healthy one is knowledge.

OK, we have seen that adding ammonia to a planted tank often will lead to a huge algae problem. Not always, but often.

First, all plants take in ammonia, they really like it. So, if you have plants, and the lighting is such that they are growing, it can take a LOT of ammonia to get the ammonia levels up to the 3 to 5 ppm that fishless cycling suggests.

So you are perking right along, adding ammonia every day, when suddenly the other nutrients bottom out. Plants like a balanced diet; nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium. Ammonia is heavy in nitrogen, NH4. But as the plants grow they use up everything else at the same time, but you are only adding ammonia. You also need the trace elements, phosphorus (P), potassium (K): NPK the holy trinity in fertilization [see you DO need chemistry in "real life"]. Suddenly you have no more P, and/or K, and/or traces (the minor requirements).

It is as if there was a banquet on the table and the guests only will eat a balanced diet. When the meat runs out, they won't eat the potatoes and vegetables. Those extra nutrients sit on that table until the cockroaches come out, scavenging the excess nutrients. The scavengers are algae. Some like this leftover, some like the other.

Now, ParadoxLiz may not have enough plants to use up nutrients, or maybe they are not actually growing fast enough to use up nutrients if lighting is low. But, it is quite possible that she will have an algae breakout before the cycling is done due to the imbalance of nutrients. Green water is most likely with high ammonia levels. The spores (or whatever) came in on the plants.

AH! See, when you explain it like that it makes so much more sense!

Does my tap water, which has an ammonia reading of 1.0 ppm, have a affect every time I do a water change? It seems to correct itself within a day, if I add no Bio Spira, or an hour, if I do add Bio Spira.

Also, I'm confused as to where the phosphates come into play. What exactly do they do or not do? My tap water is off the charts and here I thought I was overfeeding.

Roan

 

[ParadoxLiz]

FWIW, I haven't had the ammonia over 2ppm. The light is low (probably not enough for the plant (the clerk didn't know what it was and there was no label) so this is entirely a gamble anywho). The tank is only 2g. I have it planted in Flourite and do plan to add fertilizers (am still researching, and I greatly appreciate your post (I've had a very hard time getting answers about plants - maybe the experts are tired of answering questions)). Thus far, it looks like potassium is the thing I need most (along with the trace and generic fertilizer) - my water has some phosphorus in it and the Nitrates are coming from the cycle (right now, and I'll keep watching). I wouldn't think adding fertilizer would cause any problems during a cycle - maybe I'm wrong. Basically I'm experimenting. If it goes wrong, oh well, I'll start over. I wasn't planning to use the tank any time soon. It really is, right now, more for experimenting (without fish, which could otherwise be harmed).

I'll try to remember to post back if algae becomes a problem so that folks know one way or the other.

Thanks,

Liz

 

[anonapersona]

I think I'm trying to explain why some of us are being argumentative with you.

It is OK, I was getting a bit testy and that's really not my style.

AH! See, when you explain it like that it makes so much more sense!

I have to be careful with the analogies, for the experts sometimes point out where that is wrong (nitpicking) but it paints a good enough picture I think.

Does my tap water, which has an ammonia reading of 1.0 ppm, have a affect every time I do a water change? It seems to correct itself within a day, if I add no Bio Spira, or an hour, if I do add Bio Spira.

Using Prime will be a lot cheaper! And instantly treats the ammonia, no stress to fish. If you do small water changes having the ammonia for a slight time may not be a big problem if you have low pH, under 7.0, but the damage can accumlate I'd guess, and any ammonia is too much reallly.

I really like Prime, I use it even though I have only chlorine in my water, for fear that one day they will switch to chloramine and forget to tell me about it. And it is great for that day you come home and find the power off, no telling for how long and the fish look sad. Follow directions, dose the full tank if adding Prime to the tank, dose the bucket if adding Prime to the bucket. 1 ml per 10 gallons, 1 capful per 50 gallons.

Also, I'm confused as to where the phosphates come into play. What exactly do they do or not do? My tap water is off the charts and here I thought I was overfeeding.

Off the charts in what, phosphates? Can be from food. May be from the tap water also I guess. Might want to test the tap water or get a report from the water company. Nice to have that report anyhow.

A lot of foods are very high in phosphates due to the things they use. In a planted tank we typically have to add phosphates however.

But, if you even used any pH adjusters THAT is typically the culprit in high phosphates. I actually use Wardleys sodium biphosphate to add phosphate to my tanks. The directions say to use 1/4 teaspoon to 10 gallons of water -- I added 1/4 teaspoon to 29 gallons of water and measured phosphates at something like 30ppm, IIRC. And if you run carbon, cheap carbon, which is most carbon, I've read that it can leach phosphates into the tank. I don't run carbon so I can't say for sure.

 

[anonapersona]

FWIW, I haven't had the ammonia over 2ppm. The light is low (probably not enough for the plant (the clerk didn't know what it was and there was no label) so this is entirely a gamble anywho). The tank is only 2g. I have it planted in Flourite and do plan to add fertilizers (am still researching, and I greatly appreciate your post (I've had a very hard time getting answers about plants - maybe the experts are tired of answering questions)).

Light is the most important thing. Without enough light the plant will die, with low light it may not need more fertillizers than a fish will provide, with more light it may need additional fertilizers.

If you add plants and light, you don't need to worry about cycling. The plant comes with a lot of the needed bacteria attached, and it sucks up ammonia when it has light.

You may be able to identify the plant if you go to some of the online plant vendors like Aqua Botanic, Aquarium Driftwood, or Fish Vet, or Arizona Gardens. Some of those sites have good info about the needs of many plants. The most common plants will be sword plants or cryptocornes if rooted, or if it is a stem plant, there are quite a lot of them so you need to look at photos. Knowing what you bought is important, for it may be a good choice or a bad choice for such a small tank.

 

[Roan Art]

Using Prime will be a lot cheaper! And instantly treats the ammonia, no stress to fish. If you do small water changes having the ammonia for a slight time may not be a big problem if you have low pH, under 7.0, but the damage can accumlate I'd guess, and any ammonia is too much reallly.

I really like Prime, I use it even though I have only chlorine in my water, for fear that one day they will switch to chloramine and forget to tell me about it. And it is great for that day you come home and find the power off, no telling for how long and the fish look sad. Follow directions, dose the full tank if adding Prime to the tank, dose the bucket if adding Prime to the bucket. 1 ml per 10 gallons, 1 capful per 50 gallons.

I always use Prime. I bet I'm not using enough. My tap water readings:

pH: 7.8
Iron: .1 mg/l
Nitrite: 0 mg/l
Nitrate: 5.0 mg/l
Phosphate: 2+ mg/l
Ammonia: 1.0 mg/l

Off the charts in what, phosphates? Can be from food. May be from the tap water also I guess. Might want to test the tap water or get a report from the water company. Nice to have that report anyhow.

A lot of foods are very high in phosphates due to the things they use. In a planted tank we typically have to add phosphates however.

My tank *and* my tap water are off the charts in phosphates. I'm using the Red Sea test kit and the test water is so blue at the end it's nuts.

Okay, so plants use phosphates. My 36gallon tank is fairly planted: 2x amazon swords, 2xVariegated Japanese Rush, Java Fern, Water Sprite, Anarcharis (about 4 bunches), Ozelot sword, Red Cryptocoryne, and 1 Radican Sword. Yet my phosphates are very high.

You're right. I'm going to request a report. Wonder if I can do that on line.

But, if you even used any pH adjusters THAT is typically the culprit in high phosphates. I actually use Wardleys sodium biphosphate to add phosphate to my tanks. The directions say to use 1/4 teaspoon to 10 gallons of water -- I added 1/4 teaspoon to 29 gallons of water and measured phosphates at something like 30ppm, IIRC. And if you run carbon, cheap carbon, which is most carbon, I've read that it can leach phosphates into the tank. I don't run carbon so I can't say for sure.

Nod, I've never used pH adjusters in this tank. Only the betta tank before I knew better.

My pH is 7.8 out of the tap and after a water change. It drops to 7.4 in all my tanks after two days.

I don't use carbon anymore. I have a Penguin 330 in that tank and I took the carbon out of the filter a couple of weeks ago.

Roan

 

[anonapersona]

My tap water readings:

pH: 7.8
Iron: .1 mg/l
Nitrite: 0 mg/l
Nitrate: 5.0 mg/l
Phosphate: 2+ mg/l
Ammonia: 1.0 mg/l

My pH is 7.8 out of the tap and after a water change. It drops to 7.4 in all my tanks after two days.

Roan

Wow, that is pretty near to perfect for a planted tank, right out of the tap! Indeed, that water would be tough for a fish only tank, a real algae farm with any light at all I'd guess.

What are the levels in your tank after a week?

My first thought is that a weekly water change of 50% or so will refresh your tank with all the stuff it needs to grow plants, no fertilizers needed unless the nitrate bottoms out too fast and leaves a lot of phosphate unused. Um, or maybe not, it might use up the iron and nitrate and need additons of that late in the week to allow the plants to suck up the phosphates. And you might need some other minor traces or potassium, hard to say as there are no tests for that really. Anyhow, in your case you are almost in a reverse-fertilization situation (like some European areas) where you change water to add fertillizers to the tank and grow plants to remove fertilizers.

As for water conditioning, just add the tank volume dose of Prime at each water change.

Oh, and please don't think I know all that much, I read a lot but I don't have nearly the experience of some of the folks around here. I just try to be helpful. You always need to think about what you read, from me or anyone, sometimes I get misdirected and sometimes I am just wrong. OTOH, if RTR or Plantbrain says something, you can take that to the bank, they have years and years of experience with durn near every aspect of aquariums.