Fishless cycle problems
- Thread starter jbobb1
- Start date
I agree with Carp and Wagner.
Whats happened is that when you did the 75% pwc the chlorine in the water killed back the bacteria you had growing. It will make you cycle over and over again.Prime/Amquel added with each pwc will fix that problem from happening again.
Since the ammonia bounced back so quickly you won't need to start over. BUT nitrite bacteria are alot more sensitive, as you're seeing with the new spike. You'll probably have to do that part of the cycle over again.
Whats happened is that when you did the 75% pwc the chlorine in the water killed back the bacteria you had growing. It will make you cycle over and over again.Prime/Amquel added with each pwc will fix that problem from happening again.
Since the ammonia bounced back so quickly you won't need to start over. BUT nitrite bacteria are alot more sensitive, as you're seeing with the new spike. You'll probably have to do that part of the cycle over again.
I use a python vac to do my water changes.How do I treat the water with this? Can I add water to the tank than treat it,or will that harm the bacteria? I'm getting close to a completed cycle.
I always treat the water as it's filling back up. Make sure you treat for the full volume of your tank though, not just the partial. For instance, if you do a 50% PWC on your 55g, still treat for 55g, not just the 26 that you actually change.jbobb1 said:
jbobb1 said:
A new tank is pretty fragile and a 75% water change could surely cause it to go into a mini-cycle. I've cycled many tanks with the fishless method myself. I wouldn't do more then a 25% water change on a new tank. What were the nitrate levels before you did the change?
If they were quite high then do a series of smaller water changes over several days so as not to wipe out the bacteria.
Here's an article I wrote on the fishless method.
Cycling: The Fishless Method
Since there are no fish you won't have to treat with the conditioners until you're ready to add them. If you use AmQuel now, it will neutralize the ammonia and your test results will be inaccurate.
By the way, Hi. I'm new. I'm Christie and this is my first post. :hi:
welcome to AC Christie.
Jbobb1, christie is right about the prime and amquel-be ware that if u use Prime or Amquel as your water conditioner that it will also wipe out part of the ammonia and so screw up you ammonia readings a little.i just used big als water conditioner that removes chlorine and chloramines and everything is going smooth for me.
i am following this guide for fishless cycling written by Daveedka , one of the experts here:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64301
Goodluck and dont give up!
when you see all your fish happily swimming about in your tank, all your months of cycling will be worth it.
Jbobb1, christie is right about the prime and amquel-be ware that if u use Prime or Amquel as your water conditioner that it will also wipe out part of the ammonia and so screw up you ammonia readings a little.i just used big als water conditioner that removes chlorine and chloramines and everything is going smooth for me.
i am following this guide for fishless cycling written by Daveedka , one of the experts here:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64301
Goodluck and dont give up!
when you see all your fish happily swimming about in your tank, all your months of cycling will be worth it.
Welcome to Ac Christie.
A couple of points that should be mentioned after reading your article and post.
1st one is that the bacteria are not contained in the water primarily, but in the filter media and to some extent the gravel as your article mentions. Therefore large water change will not have a negative effect on the estabilished cyle. Not during the dourse of cycling or thereafter. The only way water changes would hurt at that point is if you did not treat for chlorine or chloramines, in which case the water change isn't the problem, the disinfectants are.
Secondly the reccomendation to use no water conditioner is not a safe one at all. Chlorine and chloramines are put into tap water to Kill bacteria and other living organisms. Adding colonized gravel and not treating with some sort of dechlorinator will kill off at least part and possibly all of your bacteria seed. One could set up a tank with chlorinated water and allow a few days for the chlorine to gas off then add a bacteria seed, but putting seeded gravel in a tank and then adding untreated water would not be a good idea at all. If chloramines are in the water they take much longer to break down and dissapate (That happens to be the point of chloramines) so it would definately be necessary to condition the water with something in the case of chloramines,
Water conditioners such as prime and amquel plus do not remove the ammonia, they bind it into ammonium. It is still available and will be used by your bacteria. So adding them will not in any way hurt the progress of the cycle. Some ammonia tests distingiush between ammonia and ammonium, other do not. So if using a test that ditinguishes between the two compunds, you may not get accurate readings, but the ammonia is still there and available so there is no danger in using dechlorinator that also deal with ammonia. Deoending on your purposes, get a test that shows both ammonia and ammonium as a total then you can still keep track of levels, while not worrying about using prime or Amquel plus.
I would definately say that prime and amquel plus are not needed in a tank with no fish, but they are not detrimental. And no matter what the chlorine or chloramines need to be neutralized so some sort of dechlorinaotr is a must. If you are worried about the test or the ammonia verses ammonium ratio, simply buy the chepaest dechlorinator you can find. Use it during the cyle to ensure chlorine is gone. Simple dechlorinators will neutralise chlorine, and in the case of chloramines, they will break the bond, neutralize the chlrine and leave behind the ammonia.
Dave
A couple of points that should be mentioned after reading your article and post.
1st one is that the bacteria are not contained in the water primarily, but in the filter media and to some extent the gravel as your article mentions. Therefore large water change will not have a negative effect on the estabilished cyle. Not during the dourse of cycling or thereafter. The only way water changes would hurt at that point is if you did not treat for chlorine or chloramines, in which case the water change isn't the problem, the disinfectants are.
Secondly the reccomendation to use no water conditioner is not a safe one at all. Chlorine and chloramines are put into tap water to Kill bacteria and other living organisms. Adding colonized gravel and not treating with some sort of dechlorinator will kill off at least part and possibly all of your bacteria seed. One could set up a tank with chlorinated water and allow a few days for the chlorine to gas off then add a bacteria seed, but putting seeded gravel in a tank and then adding untreated water would not be a good idea at all. If chloramines are in the water they take much longer to break down and dissapate (That happens to be the point of chloramines) so it would definately be necessary to condition the water with something in the case of chloramines,
Water conditioners such as prime and amquel plus do not remove the ammonia, they bind it into ammonium. It is still available and will be used by your bacteria. So adding them will not in any way hurt the progress of the cycle. Some ammonia tests distingiush between ammonia and ammonium, other do not. So if using a test that ditinguishes between the two compunds, you may not get accurate readings, but the ammonia is still there and available so there is no danger in using dechlorinator that also deal with ammonia. Deoending on your purposes, get a test that shows both ammonia and ammonium as a total then you can still keep track of levels, while not worrying about using prime or Amquel plus.
I would definately say that prime and amquel plus are not needed in a tank with no fish, but they are not detrimental. And no matter what the chlorine or chloramines need to be neutralized so some sort of dechlorinaotr is a must. If you are worried about the test or the ammonia verses ammonium ratio, simply buy the chepaest dechlorinator you can find. Use it during the cyle to ensure chlorine is gone. Simple dechlorinators will neutralise chlorine, and in the case of chloramines, they will break the bond, neutralize the chlrine and leave behind the ammonia.
Dave
Nod. I did a 90% water change at the end of my fishless cycle and it did not harm bacteria at all.daveedka said:
Nod again. I use Prime as my water conditioner through my fishless cycle and ever since. It's completely safe for use during cycling. Their website addresses both the "binding" of ammonia but still being available to the biofilter, as well as the test kit issue.daveedka said:
http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Prime.html
Yes.
I understand the process well and agree with all the above. Experience has shown me though (and I never say this because I'm science-minded but what the heck) that you can successfully cycle a tank without adding dechlorinator. I have cycled all my tanks with this method utilizing water that is treated with chloramines and have had a 100% success rate.
However,
I completely agree that you can use a conditioner that neutralizes chlorine and chloramines but doesn't bind ammonia and get the same results without it affecting your test readings. I just don't agree that you must.
I understand the process well and agree with all the above. Experience has shown me though (and I never say this because I'm science-minded but what the heck) that you can successfully cycle a tank without adding dechlorinator. I have cycled all my tanks with this method utilizing water that is treated with chloramines and have had a 100% success rate.
However,
I completely agree that you can use a conditioner that neutralizes chlorine and chloramines but doesn't bind ammonia and get the same results without it affecting your test readings. I just don't agree that you must.
