numbers don’t seem to have changed much this morning. 2-3 ammonia, I’d say 1 on Nitrite but looked darker, and around 20 nitrate. Ph is 7.5 range
Fishless Cycle
- Thread starter railer20
- Start date
numbers don’t seem to have changed much this morning. 2-3 ammonia, I’d say 1 on Nitrite but looked darker, and around 20 nitrate. Ph is 7.5 range
Your numbers have changed. You reported you had .25 ppm or maybe .50 when you did an addition of 3 ppm. This meant you had between 3.25 and 3.5 ppm after adding Dose #4. I will accept a 2-3 ppm reading as being 2.5. So you dropped for sure. The nitrite you say looks darker than 1 so lets think it nudged up a bit. The direction of movement is what you wanted to see. Have a good day and test again tomorrow morning. ?
Just bear in mind that the bacteria are now in a doubling stage. So every hour there will be more and that means they will process more the next hour. To over simplify. If you have 100 individuals at the start, they can process X ammonia. In about 8-9 hours they will become 200. So your colony, having doubled in size, can also process twice as much, i.e. 2X ammonia. So at the end of the next 8-9 hours you will end up able to process 4X. And by the end of a full day the colony will double again and can now process 8X Ammonia.
The same thing is happening with the nitrite bacteria. But they take longer to double. However, unlike doing a new cycle from scratch where the few nitrite bacteria present will not start to build until the ammonia ones are making enough nitrite. However, you were partially cycled, so you have more of the nitrite bacteria than if starting from scratch. You should not see nitrite go as high as indicated in the article. In essence you have a jump start on the nitrite oxidizers as well as the ammonia ones.
The problem in all this is we have no idea how many bacteria are in that X. How the test readings go will give us the clues. The only thing that can matter is the level of inorganic carbon is available for the bacteria. This would include both the co2 dissolved in the water as well as the carbonates/bicarbonates contributing to KH. While KH helps keep pH stable. It is also "food" for the bacteria. When I ran my biofarm I was keeping enough filters to handle 200 gallons of fully stocked tank water in a 29 gallon tank. I always had a bag of crushed coral in it to insure the carbonate levels were adequate. You can monitor KH directly with that test kit or you can monitor the pH as it will start to drop if there is not enough KH to hold it steady.
Keep testing ammonia, nitrite and pH every 24. And learn patience. There is an old proverb:
"Patience is a virtue, Possess it if you can, Seldom found in woman, Never found in man.” ― Jonathan Morris, The Way of Serenity: Finding Peace and Happiness in the Serenity Prayer
Just bear in mind that the bacteria are now in a doubling stage. So every hour there will be more and that means they will process more the next hour. To over simplify. If you have 100 individuals at the start, they can process X ammonia. In about 8-9 hours they will become 200. So your colony, having doubled in size, can also process twice as much, i.e. 2X ammonia. So at the end of the next 8-9 hours you will end up able to process 4X. And by the end of a full day the colony will double again and can now process 8X Ammonia.
The same thing is happening with the nitrite bacteria. But they take longer to double. However, unlike doing a new cycle from scratch where the few nitrite bacteria present will not start to build until the ammonia ones are making enough nitrite. However, you were partially cycled, so you have more of the nitrite bacteria than if starting from scratch. You should not see nitrite go as high as indicated in the article. In essence you have a jump start on the nitrite oxidizers as well as the ammonia ones.
The problem in all this is we have no idea how many bacteria are in that X. How the test readings go will give us the clues. The only thing that can matter is the level of inorganic carbon is available for the bacteria. This would include both the co2 dissolved in the water as well as the carbonates/bicarbonates contributing to KH. While KH helps keep pH stable. It is also "food" for the bacteria. When I ran my biofarm I was keeping enough filters to handle 200 gallons of fully stocked tank water in a 29 gallon tank. I always had a bag of crushed coral in it to insure the carbonate levels were adequate. You can monitor KH directly with that test kit or you can monitor the pH as it will start to drop if there is not enough KH to hold it steady.
Keep testing ammonia, nitrite and pH every 24. And learn patience. There is an old proverb:
"Patience is a virtue, Possess it if you can, Seldom found in woman, Never found in man.” ― Jonathan Morris, The Way of Serenity: Finding Peace and Happiness in the Serenity Prayer
I do have a bag of crushed coral. Is that something I should add to help stabilize? I was just going to put it in some black pantyhose and tuck it in the back corner if I needed to do it.
Sorry if I missed it.. forgot it.. etc.. But what is your tap water pH and does it match the tank's ph? Since the start of this discussion, i'm hoping you haven't added anything to this tank other than dechlorinated water and your little bit of ammonia dosing? To me, any other adds, crushed coral, etc. just adds more dynamic to your situation that you do not need. Gotta keep it simple for me.. LOL
tap runs 7.6-7.8 and tank runs 7.5 or so, but I was just worried it would drop like it did before you all started helping me. No I havent added anything.
You know you're doing adequate water changes if the tank and tank pH's match. That's what you want. pH tests can be funky too. You can let a tap or tank sample sit untouched over night, then run a pH test on it for more accuracy.
The idea during a fishless cycle is not to change water unless one must. If you see your pH sliding, put about 1/2 cup of the crushed coral in the stocking and then in the filter. Crushed coral is basically calcium carbonate.
The coral is dissolved by the acid in the water. The lower the pH is under 7.0, the faster the coral dissolves. This in turn raises the KH and that holds the pH up. As the pH goes back up, the water becomes less acid and the coral dissolves more slowly. BTW, calcium is not veryl water soluble.
Baking Soda is sodium bicarbonate. And it will also raise the KH because of the bicarbonate part. however, it will also add sodium to the water and many fish will not do well with this. Baking soda tends to rive the pH towards and equilibrium of pH 8.2.
If one starts with a low KH in their tap and then begins a fishless cycle, as the bacteria multiply they will consume carbonates and bicarbonates. They can also use co2 but that naturally replenishes via normal gas exchange when the surface of the water is roiled.
Also, normally allowing tap water to outgas before doing a pH test usually results in a higher not a lower pH. The tap water often has excess co2 dissolved in it and by bubbling it for a bit or letting it sit out over night will allow the co2 in the water to get back into equilibrium with the air. It is rare that ones tap water comes out at a higher pH and drops to a lower one soon after it goes into a tank.
@
railer20
Did I send you to the FINS site to read up some on basic water chemistry? I am too lazy to look through this thread to check, if not plese go here :
The coral is dissolved by the acid in the water. The lower the pH is under 7.0, the faster the coral dissolves. This in turn raises the KH and that holds the pH up. As the pH goes back up, the water becomes less acid and the coral dissolves more slowly. BTW, calcium is not veryl water soluble.
Baking Soda is sodium bicarbonate. And it will also raise the KH because of the bicarbonate part. however, it will also add sodium to the water and many fish will not do well with this. Baking soda tends to rive the pH towards and equilibrium of pH 8.2.
If one starts with a low KH in their tap and then begins a fishless cycle, as the bacteria multiply they will consume carbonates and bicarbonates. They can also use co2 but that naturally replenishes via normal gas exchange when the surface of the water is roiled.
Also, normally allowing tap water to outgas before doing a pH test usually results in a higher not a lower pH. The tap water often has excess co2 dissolved in it and by bubbling it for a bit or letting it sit out over night will allow the co2 in the water to get back into equilibrium with the air. It is rare that ones tap water comes out at a higher pH and drops to a lower one soon after it goes into a tank.
@
railer20
Did I send you to the FINS site to read up some on basic water chemistry? I am too lazy to look through this thread to check, if not plese go here :
- Practical Freshwater Chemistry
- The Big Components:
(pH, Buffering Capacity, General Hardness, Salinity, Nutrients and Trace Elements) - Altering Your Tank Water's Chemistry
(Hardening, Softening, Changing pH)
- The Big Components:
I will take a look at those! My readings this morning:The idea during a fishless cycle is not to change water unless one must. If you see your pH sliding, put about 1/2 cup of the crushed coral in the stocking and then in the filter. Crushed coral is basically calcium carbonate.
The coral is dissolved by the acid in the water. The lower the pH is under 7.0, the faster the coral dissolves. This in turn raises the KH and that holds the pH up. As the pH goes back up, the water becomes less acid and the coral dissolves more slowly. BTW, calcium is not veryl water soluble.
Baking Soda is sodium bicarbonate. And it will also raise the KH because of the bicarbonate part. however, it will also add sodium to the water and many fish will not do well with this. Baking soda tends to rive the pH towards and equilibrium of pH 8.2.
If one starts with a low KH in their tap and then begins a fishless cycle, as the bacteria multiply they will consume carbonates and bicarbonates. They can also use co2 but that naturally replenishes via normal gas exchange when the surface of the water is roiled.
Also, normally allowing tap water to outgas before doing a pH test usually results in a higher not a lower pH. The tap water often has excess co2 dissolved in it and by bubbling it for a bit or letting it sit out over night will allow the co2 in the water to get back into equilibrium with the air. It is rare that ones tap water comes out at a higher pH and drops to a lower one soon after it goes into a tank.
@
Did I send you to the FINS site to read up some on basic water chemistry? I am too lazy to look through this thread to check, if not plese go here :
- Practical Freshwater Chemistry
- The Big Components:
(pH, Buffering Capacity, General Hardness, Salinity, Nutrients and Trace Elements)- Altering Your Tank Water's Chemistry
(Hardening, Softening, Changing pH)
PH seems to still be around that 7.5
Ammonia - doing that funky picture color but would say between 1-2ppm
Nitrite - 2 ppm?
Nitrate - 30 ppm?
Things are going as expected as far as I can tell from your interpretation of the results. I do have one question about the pictures. When the test vials are filled with tank water they should be as close to the line on the tube for where to stop. After adding the required drops the liquid in the tube should be above that line. I cannot tell how much you may have tilted them when holding them for the pictures, but it looks to me that two of the vials- nitrite and the normal pH- may not have been fully filled with tank water before the drops went in. I cannot tell by the pictures where they were filled to before the drops were added. If there were underfilled a bit, the test results would come out a tad higher than they really are.
The one I worry about a bit in terms of not having filled the tube to the line is the nitrite. However, the direction of things looks good. I would put your pH a tad higher than you. The normal range result is clearly at the maximum 7.6 level to my eyes and the high range is clearly at 7.8. What we do not want to let happen is for the pH to go below 7.0. You do not have to test this every time you test for ammonia or nitrite until occasional pH testing shows it dropping close to that 7.0. At that point a smaller 25-30% water change will help to raise it back towards where it should be.
However, the numbers also tell me your cycle is not quite as far along as I had initially hoped. What we are looking for here first and foremost is for an ammonia dose of 3 ppm to test at 0 ppm within 24 hours. After that we want to see nitrite readings drop and when the final ammonia add is done in a cycled tank, both hit 0. It looks like your ammonia had dropped by half. I think what we may have added was Dose #2 rather than #4. The problem is we have a partial cycle of unknown level as the starting point after the reset. What is most important is the cycle is for sure back on track. Be patient, you are getting there. Cycling is not a race. Looking forward to how many years from now you may still be keeping fish, a few days or even a week or two more to get the tank cycled is nothing compared to the years or decades of enjoyment you will get from the hobby.
At this time do nothing until you test again tomorrow. Do not stress, things are not out of control.
Because our test kits use the total ion scale 1 ppm of Total Ammonia, if 100 % is converted to Nitrite, it would produce about 2.58 ppm of nitrite. If this is converted 100% to Nitrate, this would result in about 3.47 ppm. However, science uses the nitrogen scale. This only measures the Nitrogen (the N in all the three compounds). For science 1 ppm NH3 = 1 ppm NO2 = 1 ppm NO3.
I am happy to give a more in depth explanation of this if folks are interested. What I can say is that the reason I say "about" above is that ammonia evaporates. Moreover, other organisms which are not the nitrifiers may use it. There is no way for us to know how much ammonia from the time we measure it might be "lost" to other processes besides oxidizing it to nitrite. However, what we can know is that the maximum it might be and that is helpful. What this also means as that as we measure at each stage the numbers should be higher until the tank is fully cycled. Then the only number to rise will be nitrate. And it one has a heavily planted tank, there often will be 0 nitrate.
To those reading in this thread, yes I am long winded in this age of fast answers. However, I am this way for a reason. The more we know about the science underlying our hobby, the better fish keepers we become. And this is a good thing for the living things in our tanks. It is also a great way to avoid the stress that can come from feeling completely lost trying to deal with a problem or disease in a tank.
Doing proper testing: It matters how we do liquid tests in our tanks. Here is what I do:
1. I rinse the cap and the vial in tap water.
2. I fill the tube with tank water and then pour it out letting it go through the cap. (I want the tap water to be rinsed out by tank water.)
3. For the actual test, I invert the tube (bottom up), lower it into the tank about halfway to the bottom and then allow it to fill. I do this to avoid taking water from the surface where there can be oils or dust etc. which can interfere with accurate results.
4. After the test, I again rinse the vial and cap in tap water and it goes back into my testing case (I use a cheap plastic tackle box).
It is important to:
- Fill the vials to the line as closely as possible.
- Do not use kits past their expiration date
- Make an effort to hold reagent bottle vertically and try to produce similar sized drops.
- Cap the vial to shake it. Do not use your finger for this.
- Take sample water from the mid-level of a tank.
- Make sure when putting the tops back on reagent bottles to screw t all the way down.
- Reading results- Place the vial against the white part of the card next to the color bars. The light source should come from behind you.
- Any time a test result is at the highest level for the kit, you likely need to do diluted testing to know the true reading is not actually higher.
The one I worry about a bit in terms of not having filled the tube to the line is the nitrite. However, the direction of things looks good. I would put your pH a tad higher than you. The normal range result is clearly at the maximum 7.6 level to my eyes and the high range is clearly at 7.8. What we do not want to let happen is for the pH to go below 7.0. You do not have to test this every time you test for ammonia or nitrite until occasional pH testing shows it dropping close to that 7.0. At that point a smaller 25-30% water change will help to raise it back towards where it should be.
However, the numbers also tell me your cycle is not quite as far along as I had initially hoped. What we are looking for here first and foremost is for an ammonia dose of 3 ppm to test at 0 ppm within 24 hours. After that we want to see nitrite readings drop and when the final ammonia add is done in a cycled tank, both hit 0. It looks like your ammonia had dropped by half. I think what we may have added was Dose #2 rather than #4. The problem is we have a partial cycle of unknown level as the starting point after the reset. What is most important is the cycle is for sure back on track. Be patient, you are getting there. Cycling is not a race. Looking forward to how many years from now you may still be keeping fish, a few days or even a week or two more to get the tank cycled is nothing compared to the years or decades of enjoyment you will get from the hobby.
At this time do nothing until you test again tomorrow. Do not stress, things are not out of control.
Because our test kits use the total ion scale 1 ppm of Total Ammonia, if 100 % is converted to Nitrite, it would produce about 2.58 ppm of nitrite. If this is converted 100% to Nitrate, this would result in about 3.47 ppm. However, science uses the nitrogen scale. This only measures the Nitrogen (the N in all the three compounds). For science 1 ppm NH3 = 1 ppm NO2 = 1 ppm NO3.
I am happy to give a more in depth explanation of this if folks are interested. What I can say is that the reason I say "about" above is that ammonia evaporates. Moreover, other organisms which are not the nitrifiers may use it. There is no way for us to know how much ammonia from the time we measure it might be "lost" to other processes besides oxidizing it to nitrite. However, what we can know is that the maximum it might be and that is helpful. What this also means as that as we measure at each stage the numbers should be higher until the tank is fully cycled. Then the only number to rise will be nitrate. And it one has a heavily planted tank, there often will be 0 nitrate.
To those reading in this thread, yes I am long winded in this age of fast answers. However, I am this way for a reason. The more we know about the science underlying our hobby, the better fish keepers we become. And this is a good thing for the living things in our tanks. It is also a great way to avoid the stress that can come from feeling completely lost trying to deal with a problem or disease in a tank.
Doing proper testing: It matters how we do liquid tests in our tanks. Here is what I do:
1. I rinse the cap and the vial in tap water.
2. I fill the tube with tank water and then pour it out letting it go through the cap. (I want the tap water to be rinsed out by tank water.)
3. For the actual test, I invert the tube (bottom up), lower it into the tank about halfway to the bottom and then allow it to fill. I do this to avoid taking water from the surface where there can be oils or dust etc. which can interfere with accurate results.
4. After the test, I again rinse the vial and cap in tap water and it goes back into my testing case (I use a cheap plastic tackle box).
It is important to:
- Fill the vials to the line as closely as possible.
- Do not use kits past their expiration date
- Make an effort to hold reagent bottle vertically and try to produce similar sized drops.
- Cap the vial to shake it. Do not use your finger for this.
- Take sample water from the mid-level of a tank.
- Make sure when putting the tops back on reagent bottles to screw t all the way down.
- Reading results- Place the vial against the white part of the card next to the color bars. The light source should come from behind you.
- Any time a test result is at the highest level for the kit, you likely need to do diluted testing to know the true reading is not actually higher.
I may have been tilting slightly in the pics. I use a medicine dropper to fill the tubes so usually should be right at the line. One thing I don’t do is dip down into the water, it’s usually closer to the top. I will try getting a little further down to get my test water in the morning.
