Fishless Cycle
- Thread starter railer20
- Start date
We interupt aour regularly scheduled thread for a word about testing in general.
Considering all the misinformation out there on cycling, all the products to help that contain the wrong nitrite oxidizers etc. I often wonder more folks just don't give up and leave the hobby before they have a chance to discover how much fun it can be.
I got curious and made a big effort to learn the science. I also caught MTS and found myself having to cycle about a dozen outdoor tanks or more a year. 6-8 were summer only tanks set up in late May/early June and taken down when nighttime temps dropped below the high 50s F. I also began attending weekend fish events where I would sell either from my hotel room or as a vendor. I did so using glass tanks and cycled filters.
I also got curious about what sort of tests science used since it is clear hobby kits have a bunch of drawbacks. The biggest is color interpretation. I soon discovered that science doesn't rely on the human eye alone to determine colors, they use much more accurate equipment for this. It reads the exact wavelength of the color. A less exotic version still uses the human eye but in a way that is way more reliable.
If you are curious here is their $104 kit (shipping additional) which would be used in the same applications as the API ammonia test which costs around $8 and if you buy enough in an order on a fish site, shipping is free
https://www.hach.com/nitrogen-ammonia-test-kit-model-ni-sa/product-details?id=7640220995&callback=qs
But if you need super accuracy , then you might consider spending a bit more. You can have this beauty of an ammonia test for a mere $468 but the reagents are not included. For 100 salicylate test they will run you and additional $90.00. It tests for ammonia NH3, the nasty stuff. https://www.hach.com/dr300-pocket-c...n-with-box/product?id=55321383874&callback=qs
My point here is hobby kits are useful, but be careful in assuming how accurate they are. If you download the manual for this kit, it goes into great detail as to what might interfere with results. It also tells you how to get around this potential problem. Let's say there is iron in the water. One tests for iron, finds the level in the water and then adds that concentration amount to the deionized water used in the blank.
Just as and FYI, there are a few substances that will interfere with salicylate testing. iron at any level, bit also,
[QUOTE
Monochloramine that is in chloraminated drinking water interferes directly at all levels and gives high results. Use a Free Ammonia and Monochloramine method to determine free ammonia in these sample matrices.
][/QUOTE]
The point is, always take hobby kit results as being decent but also that they easily may be wrong. This is why it is important to be aware of what might make test results inaccurate and that seeing the unexpected may not be due to the amount of ammonia, nitrite or nitrate but to some form of interference. I look for clues which tell me that the process indicates X was expected but I am seeing Y instead. Then the issues becomes why.
An example of this is if one has a tannin stained tank. Any time water is discolored, it means test results may not look right. There was a product call Bag Buddies which one put into shipping water which was supposed to add oxygen and neutralize ammonia and sedate the fish somewhat. It also turned the water blue. This made it impossible to test the bag water.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread....
Considering all the misinformation out there on cycling, all the products to help that contain the wrong nitrite oxidizers etc. I often wonder more folks just don't give up and leave the hobby before they have a chance to discover how much fun it can be.
I got curious and made a big effort to learn the science. I also caught MTS and found myself having to cycle about a dozen outdoor tanks or more a year. 6-8 were summer only tanks set up in late May/early June and taken down when nighttime temps dropped below the high 50s F. I also began attending weekend fish events where I would sell either from my hotel room or as a vendor. I did so using glass tanks and cycled filters.
I also got curious about what sort of tests science used since it is clear hobby kits have a bunch of drawbacks. The biggest is color interpretation. I soon discovered that science doesn't rely on the human eye alone to determine colors, they use much more accurate equipment for this. It reads the exact wavelength of the color. A less exotic version still uses the human eye but in a way that is way more reliable.
If you are curious here is their $104 kit (shipping additional) which would be used in the same applications as the API ammonia test which costs around $8 and if you buy enough in an order on a fish site, shipping is free
https://www.hach.com/nitrogen-ammonia-test-kit-model-ni-sa/product-details?id=7640220995&callback=qs
But if you need super accuracy , then you might consider spending a bit more. You can have this beauty of an ammonia test for a mere $468 but the reagents are not included. For 100 salicylate test they will run you and additional $90.00. It tests for ammonia NH3, the nasty stuff. https://www.hach.com/dr300-pocket-c...n-with-box/product?id=55321383874&callback=qs
My point here is hobby kits are useful, but be careful in assuming how accurate they are. If you download the manual for this kit, it goes into great detail as to what might interfere with results. It also tells you how to get around this potential problem. Let's say there is iron in the water. One tests for iron, finds the level in the water and then adds that concentration amount to the deionized water used in the blank.
Just as and FYI, there are a few substances that will interfere with salicylate testing. iron at any level, bit also,
[QUOTE
Monochloramine that is in chloraminated drinking water interferes directly at all levels and gives high results. Use a Free Ammonia and Monochloramine method to determine free ammonia in these sample matrices.
][/QUOTE]
The point is, always take hobby kit results as being decent but also that they easily may be wrong. This is why it is important to be aware of what might make test results inaccurate and that seeing the unexpected may not be due to the amount of ammonia, nitrite or nitrate but to some form of interference. I look for clues which tell me that the process indicates X was expected but I am seeing Y instead. Then the issues becomes why.
An example of this is if one has a tannin stained tank. Any time water is discolored, it means test results may not look right. There was a product call Bag Buddies which one put into shipping water which was supposed to add oxygen and neutralize ammonia and sedate the fish somewhat. It also turned the water blue. This made it impossible to test the bag water.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread....
You can guarantee either folks get scared off by the process or a bad experience with it. To me it was kind of a fun DIY chemistry experiment that luckily did work out in the end.
They can also get discouraged from going at it totally uninformed with a brand new setup and having it end badly.
It makes you wish you could supply every new member of the hobby with an appropriate sized, seeded sponge bubbler filter for their setup and tell them to make sure to keep it running in their tank for a few months, along side with what ever filtration they intend to keep.
Yeah, I only rely on hobby testing as an estimate, but I'm not willing to pay for more accurate tests. Back 40 years ago we tested pH & pretty much nothing else (but my husband the chemist could figure to pH several decimal points!!, lol). This was based on wild caught fish. There were more comprehensive tests but the cost was similar to what it is today... but at 1980 student wages, quite a lot!!
This is part of the reason I don't scoff at people that use test strips. No, not as accurate as even API & there's still the color interpretations (with a bit of time limit to boot) but still a measure of what is happening in a tank. If you keep the container sealed & strips dry they can last quite a while. I've compared them with API & it's not very far off IME. For cheapness I've even split the strips vertically
But there is still the color reading...where different eyes see color in different ways...another vague idea of what's going on but IMO not invalid, just less accurate.
Now if I were TTA, breeding rare fish & selling them, I might be more willing to stump up big bucks for lab grade tests...but even for very experienced more casual hobbyists (as I consider myself) there isn't a need for all of that. It helps a lot to know your tap water, but unless you're on a well (like TTA) you can look at your water supplier's tests. They're either online or mailed to you, maybe annually or quarterly with your bill. That can tell you quite a bit if you know how to read them & what to look for. That is part of the problem "helping" people. there is a lot of variation in tap water in the just US...& it can be seasonal too...& then other countries, well, there's no telling what is "standard" or "accepted" water quality...
So I guess I agree with FF, a cycled sponge or other media would be good. (apparently angelsplus sells this or used to) for gradual fish additions. Or there's Dr. Tim's (et al) bacteria in a bottle (pretty fast!), or ammonia cycling that takes much longer but is ready for more fish at 1 time, or the hazardous fish in cycling that is also very slow...Or the truly "ton of plants" method of silent cycling that works, but takes WAY more plant mass than most newbs can conceive of...no, it's not 4 or 6 plants...
I think people that get impatient with whatever cycling method they started with & add another component before they've completed cycling are the hardest to help. There are just too many variables...& arguments, with this haphazard approach.
Just pick 1 method & see it all the way through!
I'm so very glad I can just add a used filter or media to a new tank & be done...until I have to move house again...
This is part of the reason I don't scoff at people that use test strips. No, not as accurate as even API & there's still the color interpretations (with a bit of time limit to boot) but still a measure of what is happening in a tank. If you keep the container sealed & strips dry they can last quite a while. I've compared them with API & it's not very far off IME. For cheapness I've even split the strips vertically
But there is still the color reading...where different eyes see color in different ways...another vague idea of what's going on but IMO not invalid, just less accurate.Now if I were TTA, breeding rare fish & selling them, I might be more willing to stump up big bucks for lab grade tests...but even for very experienced more casual hobbyists (as I consider myself) there isn't a need for all of that. It helps a lot to know your tap water, but unless you're on a well (like TTA) you can look at your water supplier's tests. They're either online or mailed to you, maybe annually or quarterly with your bill. That can tell you quite a bit if you know how to read them & what to look for. That is part of the problem "helping" people. there is a lot of variation in tap water in the just US...& it can be seasonal too...& then other countries, well, there's no telling what is "standard" or "accepted" water quality...
So I guess I agree with FF, a cycled sponge or other media would be good. (apparently angelsplus sells this or used to) for gradual fish additions. Or there's Dr. Tim's (et al) bacteria in a bottle (pretty fast!), or ammonia cycling that takes much longer but is ready for more fish at 1 time, or the hazardous fish in cycling that is also very slow...Or the truly "ton of plants" method of silent cycling that works, but takes WAY more plant mass than most newbs can conceive of...no, it's not 4 or 6 plants...
I think people that get impatient with whatever cycling method they started with & add another component before they've completed cycling are the hardest to help. There are just too many variables...& arguments, with this haphazard approach.
Just pick 1 method & see it all the way through!
I'm so very glad I can just add a used filter or media to a new tank & be done...until I have to move house again...
So I couldn’t test yesterday because I got called to work and didn’t get back until late last night. Was expecting good results this morning but was kind of disappointed LOL.
Ph - 7.8
Ammonia - still doesn’t look like it’s quiet at .25 yet
Nitrite - 2-5ppm on my chart
Nitrate - would estimate around 30 ppm
Ph - 7.8
Ammonia - still doesn’t look like it’s quiet at .25 yet
Nitrite - 2-5ppm on my chart
Nitrate - would estimate around 30 ppm
Here is why this can be so difficult. On Monday you reported Nitrate at 40-80. I Today you reported around 30. Looking at the most recent picture of the nitrate test, it looked to me between 40 and 80.
You did not change water and Nitrate does not evaporate. You also have no live plants. Algae will consume ammonia and nitrate, I cannot say for sure but it may also be able to use nitrite. But unless you have a lot of algae in your tank that you have not mentioned, there cannot be less Nitrate today than on Monday.
Now there can only be two reasons for this being the case. One is the nitrate test itself. Nitrate is very difficult to measure. So the test kits have a work-around. They turn the Nitrate into Nitrite and then measure that. The trouble with this is any nitrite in the tank shows up as well. Mostly they isn''t a problem because, in a cycled tank there is not detectable nitrite and during a proper fishless cycle as you are now doing, nitrite cannot get all that much above 10 ppm. Yours has been much less. Further, nitrate tests are the least accurate of the three tests and are most inaccurate in the 20 ppm and below range.
Reason two is user error. This can be due to a variety of things. Mistakes dosing drops, having outdated reagents, failure to bang bottle #2 on a surface and then shaking it like crazy for at least 30 seconds and repeating this doesn't hurt. Using one's finger instead of the cap when mixing the reagents in the vial. And then there is the biggest problem. the subjective nature of how we each perceive color.
I am not implying you cannot count drops or your kits are outdated. I assume you are following how I suggested you deal with testing. So that really leaves color perception as the most likely place things may be off. And then the space between the values on the color cards is not really ideal. That API Nitrite card has a big gap between 2 and 5 ppm which makes it pretty hard to figure out where actual values in between might be. Consider that most scientist will state that nitrite should not be allowed to exceed 5 ppm -N, that translates on the Total Ion scale of the API test to over 16 ppm.
So from your numbers today I see no info yet that convinces me where things actually are. Ammonia is most likely in the range of 0 to .25 ppm. Often this is the range where it appears stuck because of reasons not ammonia. But at this stage where nitrite is and in which direction it is moving are more important to know and there is still no clarity.
If ammonia is the same tomorrow and you are still unsure on Nitrite, my inclination is to do the snack dose. There is one other alternative, but that can be a PITA. That would be to do diluted testing for nitrite. This requires you have pure water. This will contain no Nitrite or Nitrate which are both ions. Just in case, here are instructions for doing diluted testing.
PERFORMING DILUTED NITRITE TESTING
The problem with dealing with elevated nitrite is that the typical aquarium kits do not go high enough to let us know how much nitrite may really be in any tank. And this makes fish in cycling more complex and more work than fishless. You will likely need to know how to do diluted nitrite tests. For this you need a way to create an accurate mix of your tank water and some amount of pure water, i.e. distilled or reverse osmosis/deionized (ro/di) water. You should be able to find a gallon of distilled water in the supermarket. Some fish stores sell ro/di water.
You will need a clean measuring cup as well. You will use this to mix different solutions of tank and pure water to be able to test for nitrite. You do not want to use your tap water for dilution purposes as it will often contain things that can cause test result be inaccurate.
The reason for using a measuring cup is that it is important to get the proportions of the mix as close to dead on as possible. The advantage of measuring using a cup from which you will only use a few ml is that the potential for mixing errors is way less of an issue in 8 ounces than in 5 or 10 ml of water. What you will do is start by making a 50/50 mix (4 ounces each) of tank and pure water. Then you pour 5 ml of this into the little test tube and then do the nitrite test. Multiply the result of the test by 2 to get the actual ppm in your tank.
However if this 50/50 diluted test result is still at the kit’s maximum level and the test kit reads to a maximum level of 8 ppm or less, you will have to do another dilution. The easiest way is to start with ¼ cup of tank water and ¾ cup of pure water. Test this mix and multiply the result by 4 this time. Alternatively you can use ½ cup of the initial 50/50 mix and then add ½ cup of pure water to this. The result will also be ¼ tank and ¾ pure water. If this test is also at the maximum number, don't worry about a further test, just do a huge water change (at least 50%) ASAP. After doing the water change, test for nitrite and then add the required amount of salt to deal with that amount of nitrite.
You will need to continue testing for nitrite because any further rise may mean that either water changes are needed and/or that further salt additions are needed.
You goal in doing diluted testing, if you want to try it, is to get the concentration down to a level on the color card where you feel sure of the reading. Then multiply it by the proper dilution factor. We are not worried about nitrite being high enough to slow/stop the cycle, we want to know where it really is (as close as we reasonably can) in order to know when and how much ammonia to add next.
You did not change water and Nitrate does not evaporate. You also have no live plants. Algae will consume ammonia and nitrate, I cannot say for sure but it may also be able to use nitrite. But unless you have a lot of algae in your tank that you have not mentioned, there cannot be less Nitrate today than on Monday.
Now there can only be two reasons for this being the case. One is the nitrate test itself. Nitrate is very difficult to measure. So the test kits have a work-around. They turn the Nitrate into Nitrite and then measure that. The trouble with this is any nitrite in the tank shows up as well. Mostly they isn''t a problem because, in a cycled tank there is not detectable nitrite and during a proper fishless cycle as you are now doing, nitrite cannot get all that much above 10 ppm. Yours has been much less. Further, nitrate tests are the least accurate of the three tests and are most inaccurate in the 20 ppm and below range.
Reason two is user error. This can be due to a variety of things. Mistakes dosing drops, having outdated reagents, failure to bang bottle #2 on a surface and then shaking it like crazy for at least 30 seconds and repeating this doesn't hurt. Using one's finger instead of the cap when mixing the reagents in the vial. And then there is the biggest problem. the subjective nature of how we each perceive color.
I am not implying you cannot count drops or your kits are outdated. I assume you are following how I suggested you deal with testing. So that really leaves color perception as the most likely place things may be off. And then the space between the values on the color cards is not really ideal. That API Nitrite card has a big gap between 2 and 5 ppm which makes it pretty hard to figure out where actual values in between might be. Consider that most scientist will state that nitrite should not be allowed to exceed 5 ppm -N, that translates on the Total Ion scale of the API test to over 16 ppm.
So from your numbers today I see no info yet that convinces me where things actually are. Ammonia is most likely in the range of 0 to .25 ppm. Often this is the range where it appears stuck because of reasons not ammonia. But at this stage where nitrite is and in which direction it is moving are more important to know and there is still no clarity.
If ammonia is the same tomorrow and you are still unsure on Nitrite, my inclination is to do the snack dose. There is one other alternative, but that can be a PITA. That would be to do diluted testing for nitrite. This requires you have pure water. This will contain no Nitrite or Nitrate which are both ions. Just in case, here are instructions for doing diluted testing.
PERFORMING DILUTED NITRITE TESTING
The problem with dealing with elevated nitrite is that the typical aquarium kits do not go high enough to let us know how much nitrite may really be in any tank. And this makes fish in cycling more complex and more work than fishless. You will likely need to know how to do diluted nitrite tests. For this you need a way to create an accurate mix of your tank water and some amount of pure water, i.e. distilled or reverse osmosis/deionized (ro/di) water. You should be able to find a gallon of distilled water in the supermarket. Some fish stores sell ro/di water.
You will need a clean measuring cup as well. You will use this to mix different solutions of tank and pure water to be able to test for nitrite. You do not want to use your tap water for dilution purposes as it will often contain things that can cause test result be inaccurate.
The reason for using a measuring cup is that it is important to get the proportions of the mix as close to dead on as possible. The advantage of measuring using a cup from which you will only use a few ml is that the potential for mixing errors is way less of an issue in 8 ounces than in 5 or 10 ml of water. What you will do is start by making a 50/50 mix (4 ounces each) of tank and pure water. Then you pour 5 ml of this into the little test tube and then do the nitrite test. Multiply the result of the test by 2 to get the actual ppm in your tank.
However if this 50/50 diluted test result is still at the kit’s maximum level and the test kit reads to a maximum level of 8 ppm or less, you will have to do another dilution. The easiest way is to start with ¼ cup of tank water and ¾ cup of pure water. Test this mix and multiply the result by 4 this time. Alternatively you can use ½ cup of the initial 50/50 mix and then add ½ cup of pure water to this. The result will also be ¼ tank and ¾ pure water. If this test is also at the maximum number, don't worry about a further test, just do a huge water change (at least 50%) ASAP. After doing the water change, test for nitrite and then add the required amount of salt to deal with that amount of nitrite.
You will need to continue testing for nitrite because any further rise may mean that either water changes are needed and/or that further salt additions are needed.
You goal in doing diluted testing, if you want to try it, is to get the concentration down to a level on the color card where you feel sure of the reading. Then multiply it by the proper dilution factor. We are not worried about nitrite being high enough to slow/stop the cycle, we want to know where it really is (as close as we reasonably can) in order to know when and how much ammonia to add next.
Freshy said:
The summer of 2019 my fish club paired up with the local 4H Club to sponsor up to a dozen youngsters aged 10-12 who wanted to become involved keeping fish. of course this was with their parents co-operation. The end of the project would be their club 4H booth at a big country fair at the end of the project. From strat fo finish was under 3 months.
Everybody at our club meeting where we were briefed and asked for voulnteers. I mentioned that it would take these kids 6 weeks or more to cycle tanks which would be a shame to waste. I volunteered to crank up my biofarm and to produce cycled Poret cube filters. My offer was accepted and Swiss Tropicals donated 10 3 inch Poret cubes.
The club provided each kid with a 10 gal. tank, substrate, heater, air pump live plants and the cycled filters along with mulm I includied. They also received their fish. All reports say the project was a great success and nobody dropped out. Hopefully we created some potential new fish keepers and maybe some of them were even the parents.
It's too bad Covid killed any prospect of the club repeating this in 2020
The summer of 2019 my fish club paired up with the local 4H Club to sponsor up to a dozen youngsters aged 10-12 who wanted to become involved keeping fish. of course this was with their parents co-operation. The end of the project would be their club 4H booth at a big country fair at the end of the project. From strat fo finish was under 3 months.
Everybody at our club meeting where we were briefed and asked for voulnteers. I mentioned that it would take these kids 6 weeks or more to cycle tanks which would be a shame to waste. I volunteered to crank up my biofarm and to produce cycled Poret cube filters. My offer was accepted and Swiss Tropicals donated 10 3 inch Poret cubes.
The club provided each kid with a 10 gal. tank, substrate, heater, air pump live plants and the cycled filters along with mulm I includied. They also received their fish. All reports say the project was a great success and nobody dropped out. Hopefully we created some potential new fish keepers and maybe some of them were even the parents.
It's too bad Covid killed any prospect of the club repeating this in 2020
Not sure if it matters but I emailed my city about water coming in:
CCUA has to add ammonia after chlorination to produce monochloramine to match the disinfectant in Wichita water, as Park City & Bel Aire take water from both sources. I cannot say what your residuals are out in your distribution system, but we try to maintain around 3.5 mg/L leaving the plant.
CCUA has to add ammonia after chlorination to produce monochloramine to match the disinfectant in Wichita water, as Park City & Bel Aire take water from both sources. I cannot say what your residuals are out in your distribution system, but we try to maintain around 3.5 mg/L leaving the plant.
railer, I'm a bit confused...3.5mg/l of what? Chloramine? That would be quite high...My last 2 water cos. raised pH to protect their pipes from acid erosion, many places do...it's a temporary thing, that's why we suggest testing your pH after it outgasses over 12-24 hours
TTA, your 4H project seems awesome! These are some trying covid times, I think it's just as well you didn't have it this year...I'm too scared.
TTA, your 4H project seems awesome! These are some trying covid times, I think it's just as well you didn't have it this year...I'm too scared.
It was my club's idea. I just cycled the filters and solicited the Poret donation. But we are straying from the point of this thread.
railer20
I need some test results we can see movement from, especially from Nitrite. There is a potential other you way to pull off diluted testing. If you have or can easily get a preferably (but not required) graduated vial with cap (needed) that holds 10, 20 or 30 ml (if a 10, it needs enough extra room for the drops and to be shaken). That way you can vary the test w/o changing the drops used from the normal 5. An ungraduated vial will work as you can use an API vial to measure out in 5 ml increments.
What I do not want to do is not have the cycle slowed because we did not add ammonia on time or we added the wrong Dose#. My article was designed to be a fool-proof cycling method which could not produce enough nitrite to stall it. The reason for this was to avoid saddling folks new to the hobby with having to do diluted testing.
At any rate, lets see what your morning readings show. I think we have to add ammonia very soon, I am just not willing to say how much until I know what nitrite is doing. I feel like we are playing the Game of Clue- is it Colonel Nitrite in the Fish Tank with the Ammonium Chloride?
railer20
I need some test results we can see movement from, especially from Nitrite. There is a potential other you way to pull off diluted testing. If you have or can easily get a preferably (but not required) graduated vial with cap (needed) that holds 10, 20 or 30 ml (if a 10, it needs enough extra room for the drops and to be shaken). That way you can vary the test w/o changing the drops used from the normal 5. An ungraduated vial will work as you can use an API vial to measure out in 5 ml increments.
What I do not want to do is not have the cycle slowed because we did not add ammonia on time or we added the wrong Dose#. My article was designed to be a fool-proof cycling method which could not produce enough nitrite to stall it. The reason for this was to avoid saddling folks new to the hobby with having to do diluted testing.
At any rate, lets see what your morning readings show. I think we have to add ammonia very soon, I am just not willing to say how much until I know what nitrite is doing. I feel like we are playing the Game of Clue- is it Colonel Nitrite in the Fish Tank with the Ammonium Chloride?
