Fishless cycling isn't taking...

[Neo Sithlord]

So I've been cycling my tank with 3ppm (if I'm reading the test kit right) for a week now. I went with 3ppm so as not to overdose on the ammonia I picked up as I've read that doing so can retard bactiria growth. So uhm that was a week ago now, still reading 3ppm on my amonia test and getting a steady 20 on my nitrates for some reason. Nothing on my nitrites since I started and I've tested twice daily. Unfortunately I couldn't get anything from any lfs as they always sugested some product to cycle the tank. I did buy "Cycle" against my better judgement. I've added like half a bottle of this junk and still no results. Everything I know about micrbiology tells me non of this stuff will work unless it's on a petridish or hell fresh and alive. I can't find any bio spira which seems to be the suggested stuff to use on these boards.
So the amonia I used was standard WalMart brand only 3 ingrediants on the bottle. Softened water, ammonia, and a chelating agent. Is the chelating agent killing me here? No idea what it is. Also since getting a culture from a tank is the best way to start out and I'm having a hard time finding more then the 3 stores I know of. Anyone from Wisconsin on the boards know of a good store to check out? I live smack dab in the middle of the darn state so it's 3 hours to anywhere in state from where I live.
Last of all I was thinking of fish cycling the tank. I know my last thread got locked and turned into a heated arguement about doing so yadda yadda yadda. Hope the same doesn't happen again . Especially since I was going to use white cloud minows to do it since they are compatable with betta's in a tank. Betta's being the reason for my whole fish obsetion. Still though I need a more stores to look arround in and such so doing a fish less cycle gives me plenty of time to find a store I like.
As always thanks in advance,
-Neo Sithlord (of Thisledown not that it matters but I've actually been to Linvak Tukal , at least one person here might understand that)

 

[cattlegrid_79]

I used four platies to cycle a 2ft tank. I had a Betta in with these for quite a while (once cycled!!) and they got on with it fine.

I didn't find I had any need for additional chemichals. Fishless cycling does seem like hard work and there's something about using all those chemicals and trying to create an equal balance that just doesn't seem that easy!!!!

In my past experience, i've always cycled with hardy livebearers and used some carbon in the filter for the first month or two, just to help reduce any unwanted elements before the bio-filter is established enough to handle them.

But your right...I'm not trying to start a debate on it!!!

 

[daveedka]

Without being able to introduce bacteria from elsewhere, My understanding and observation after a full week is that the process starts very slowly. I finally added some used media from my Brothers tank yesterday. I am using the same wal-mart ammonia you are and have been told by many that it is the right stuff. the cheleating agent won't hurt anything. If you are going to do a fishy cycle my reccomendation would be 1 fish as small as you can get, (the previous argument was more do the idea of throwing away the cycle fish when the cycle was complete). I still don't reccomend a fishy cycle but, they can be done wihout damage to the fish if you are carefull and don't put a lot of fish in to start. Fishless cycling speeds up the process and most of us are impatient. If you can't find a good source of Bacteria, It will be slow to start but remember, if you cycle with fish it usually takes 4-6 weeks to complete the cycle. It also requires a lot of water changes and very dilligent testing.

Anyone from Wisconsin on the boards know of a good store to check out?

If you go to Aquarium Pharmaseuticals web site Link
They have a search feature that shows all of the stores in your area that sell their products. I found out whenI hit this site that there were 26 LFS's within 15 miles of my house. I knew of 5. Might be worht your time to search and see if there are any hidden LFS's that you don't know about. Maybe you can get some bio-spira or better yet some gravel or filter media.

Nothing on my nitrites since I started and I've tested twice daily.

When the are NO fish in the tank, I wouldn't test for nitrites untill I saw a drop in ammonia levels. Unless the ammonia is being consumed, there will likely not be a nitrite spike, I am just waiting untill the ammonia starts to drop to do anything but ammonia testing. When fish are present there is much more risk so it is something to watch very closely.

 

[Neo Sithlord]

Cattlegrid compaired to cycling with fish, it is actually pretty easy to balance out the ammonia The hard part is staring at an empty tank. I'd love to do a fish cycle just so I could have something in the tank, but I really don't want to hurt my fish anymore then I have to. Problem is I don't have a primer for the bio filter to do my fishless cycle. So I'm looking for an alternitive and maybe a store that can help me out with a fishless cycle. The debate was about using fish that didn't fit into your tank plans to cycle the tank and then dispose of them (flush). I couldn't do that. It's still afew pages back if you want to look it up. I just don't want a flame war taking over again is all. I know the fish that were suggested can live happily with a betta and as such I could cycle a tank with them. I'd rather do with out them and set the tank up with tetras and a betta. Not even sure what I want for fish yet as there are other species out there that I have intrest in. So I have the time to wait on a fishless cycle. It just isn't kicking in yet and I don't know why but assume that it should have been trackable by now.
Thanks for the input though I may go fishy in the cycle yet as I can see a benefit for a newb doing it that way. I've read afew books since I started and still everything I read on the net says fishless is the way to go. Even though the books make no mention of it, but it seems to be a newer idea in the hobby.
-Neo Sithlord

 

[cattlegrid_79]

It's obvious that both ways have their advantages and disadvantages.

I don't know what the shops are like where you live (or in general in the USA), but i have bought fish for cycling before and then taken them back, or even to a different shop and said that i am changing my tank set-up.

Sometimes they give you credit against something else. Sometimes they don't, but at least it saves the fish from "talking on the big white phone!!!" (Flush)

 

[lawndart]

Don't give up yet, if I read your post right, you've only been cycling for 1 week. It takes time starting from scratch, I know it took me almost 8 weeks to fully cycle my tank. Do a search for fishless cycling and you will get some good info.

 

[Neo Sithlord]

Dave thanks for the link! I only have 8 stores in 50 miles but 53 in 100 miles. That's what I've been looking for. I have a city that's a day trip to get to with 5-6 stores and afew others relatively close to it. My point of view is, I'm looking for long term pets. So a few hours in a car to find a pet is fine by me. We just posted at the same time there in case I sounded redundant last post.
Anyways I only had 7 stores to look into, 4 have ended up being dead ends. The other three were a Petco about an hour away. A general pet store 30 mins away but the tanks look nasty (always atleast one dead fish every time I've been there). The last is an older store less then a mile from my house. I bought my first fish from there back when I was a kid in the 80's and they aren't a fly by night place. Thing is the employees aren't that helpfull, well unresponsive is more the description I'd use. Atleast I have a good starting point now.
Thanks,
-Neo Sithlord

 

[happychem]

The chelate won't hurt you, it's just there to prolong the shelflife of the ammonia, keeps it in solution.

Ask your LFS for some filter sponge squeezings, what are they gonna say? No reasonable LFS will deny that request. Then you'll have yourself the best bacteria you can get.

 

[daveedka]

Not sure where in Wi. You are, but I'll be in Madison for the next couple of days. I usually check out all the LFS's around my hotel (Something to do more productive than cable TV) If you want me to look around for places with Bio-spira I can do. I'm chomping at the bit reall bad here at home, 115 gallons of water without a fish is hard to look at, but I travel every week so it's only a few days each weekend that I have to fight the urge. If I did it every day I would be going nuts by now.

 

[Anne L.]

You might want to up your amount of ammonia to 5 ppm. I started my fishless cycle with 3 ppm, but it wasn't enough. I ended up getting the nitrites to spike and drop but they spiked again once I added more ammonia.

I only did a 10 gallon, but it took me 39 days if I remember correctly, keeping in mind that I kinda messed it up with the lesser amount of ammonia for a few days.

I tested for ammonia every day until it dropped to zero, then started testing for nitrites. I can't remember how long this took and I don't have my notes here with me at work. I know for sure it was much more than a week.

It will work, give it time. My fish are doing well, and I've only lost one cory. I think he was sick when I got him, because the other two are just fine.

The people here were invaluable in walking me through the process and very encouraging when I was getting ready to chuck it all.