Fishless Cycling Shortcut

[Luca Brazzi]

I agree wholeheartedly RTR... Hence my post to OrionGirl and decision not to engage her comments further.

Now...

Back to the issue at hand.

I think I should further revise this method so as to emphasize that getting the Nitrites down to 0 via water changes is important. So in effect, by not adding more ammonia, you will begin to somewhat starve the ammonia eaters to keep their Nitrite production low. In otherwords by doing the waterchanges and not adding the ammonia you are bringing the 2 sets of bacteria together in such a way that the output of set 1 matches the input requirements of set 2.

 

[Luca Brazzi]

superstein61

I'm a New Yorker.

I think the point is before you recommend your method - it really needs to be tested and retested in a normal fashion

To this I'd say that you cannot ignore the opposite of your statement as well which would be basically: Since there is no evidence that this method DOESNT work you have no factual grounds to reject it either. In otherwords, those who havent tried this method of cycling a tank have NO FACTUAL PROOF whatsoever that it DOESNT work! All they have is an opinion. Since there is MORE factual evidence that it DOES work (The readings dont lie, my 11 Cichlids that are now chillin in the tank that was cycled this way dont lie), at this point, its an acceptable alternative to waiting.

Dont worry, there will be another test when I cycle my next tank using this method.

 

[carpguy]

Originally posted by Luca Brazzi
1) Add 5ppm Clear Ammonia to your tank.

…

2) Wait for the 5ppm ammo to go to 0 ppm (For brand new media it could take as much as 3 weeks for the ammo to go to 0 the first time)

3) Do a Nitrate test. If you have high (100+ppm) Nitrates, then goto 4, otherwise goto 1

4) Stop adding Ammonia!

Luca,
Since you and I both know that the cycle is NH3 > NO2 > NO3, isn't this just a way of replacing the NitrIte test with a NitrAte test? Assuming that the Nitrates are coming from the cycle and not from ambient tap levels, doesn't the presence of high nitrates imply that the Nitrite-eaters (whatever they might be) have established themselves?

Seems to me that you're probably just lopping off the last few days of the nitrite spike and that due to large water changes and some hardy fish you aren't suffering any negative consequences. I'm not really seeing the innovation.

I also am a New Yorker and have been all my life. It doesn't give me a license to abuse other people and it doesn't give you one either. As a board member I'd appreciate it if you could manage to get your obvious enthusiasm disentangled from your hostility. As a New Yorker, I'd appreciate it if you didn't use that as an excuse for what most folks in most places call rudeness. Most folks I know are blunt, frank, quick, and courteous in ways that people who live in crowds find natural and necessary. Very few of them would hesitate to let you know some of your comments have been more than a little out of line.

 

[superstein61]

Originally posted by Luca Brazzi
superstein61

I'm a New Yorker.

To this I'd say that you cannot ignore the opposite of your statement as well which would be basically: Since there is no evidence that this method DOESNT work you have no factual grounds to reject it either. In otherwords, those who havent tried this method of cycling a tank have NO FACTUAL PROOF whatsoever that it DOESNT work!

Luca - I am not here to argue with you. If you read what I wrote:

"I think the point is before you recommend your method - it really needs to be tested and retested in a normal fashion"

I did not say your method did not work. What I said basically is before one recommends and accepts it, it needs to be proven to work several times - not in a single case. The fact is your method worked ONE time for 11 SPECIFIC CICHLIDS. that does not mean it will work the next time for say 11 BLUE RAMS or 11 CLOWN LOACHES or 11 CARDINALS, etc, etc

 

[Luca Brazzi]

carpguy... It will lop off weeks, if the person cycling has the amount of Nitrates that I had when my Ammo went to 0. This was an obvious sign that the Nitrobacter colony was established and very capable of handling my initial bioload of 40+ small fish.

Its really quite simple... Im not seeing what the difficulty is with understanding this. Its not magic. I'm not Houdini. I didnt pull a rabbit out of a hat. Im not some crazy, wild haired, Back to the Future scientist who invented a new miracle cure. I was a simply a witness to the facts. I recorded the outcome and posted it here.

As to your other comments. I'm too through with that kind of irrelevant, ridiculous, nonsense that OrionGirl started (Think she didnt? Check out her first post. Yeah... sounds pretty darn snippy to me... even before she knew the details). Okay so PLEASE... do me a favor and tell it to Oprah will Ya? Thanks in advance.

 

[Luca Brazzi]

superstein61

I didnt immediately stock with the Cichlids. I threw in 40+ small fish to "Test the waters"...

Most of them croaked. However, the ones that croaked were feeders (guppies/rosey reds) that were on their last leg anyway. A few of the guppies and reds did survive though (one guppy actually gave birth during the process). There were also several (10+) Mollies in there. None of the Mollies died. Not a single one. I still have them in my filterless 15 gallon.

 

[superstein61]

Originally posted by Luca Brazzi
superstein61

I didnt immediately stock with the Cichlids. I threw in 40+ small fish to "Test the waters"...

Most of them croaked. However, the ones that croaked were feeders (guppies/rosey reds) that were on their last leg anyway. A few of the guppies and reds did survive though (one guppy actually gave birth during the process). There were also several (10+) Mollies in there. None of the Mollies died. Not a single one. I still have them in my filterless 15 gallon.

Well Luca, the fact that most of them croaked is not giving me a warm and fuzzy feeling I know you said most of them were on there last leg - but are you really sure of it. The fact that most of 40+ fish died using your method raises a red flag IMO (shoot, if not red, at least a yellow caution one).

I am glad you are excited about being able to shortcut the process, but now when you say most of 40+ fish died, I would hope you understand where I and others are coming from when we say this was a single case - and really shouldn't be recommended without further study and evidence

 

[carpguy]

Originally posted by Luca Brazzi
carpguy... It will lop off weeks…

How do you lop weeks off a process that only takes weeks?

If you can push your nitrates from low to very high you have an established a nitrite-eating colony, converting nitrites to nitrates. Your right: this isn't rocket science. This is the standard procedure minus one test. You threw 40+ fish into your tank and most of them croaked. Sounds like another flawless fishless. Ah… they died for other reasons. I should have known better. Science at its finest.

As to your other comments. I'm too through with that kind of irrelevant, ridiculous, nonsense that OrionGirl started (Think she didnt? Check out her first post. Yeah... sounds pretty darn snippy to me... even before she knew the details). Okay so PLEASE... do me a favor and tell it to Oprah will Ya? Thanks in advance.

Your obviously not done with it. And its been going on for awhile. If you want to play the maverick line up whatever it is you think you've got and try to keep the hostility out of it. Defend it if you can, and back down if you can't.

And don't thank me in advance.

Thanks in advance.

 

[jiggerpolebill]

if youre adding fish, how is it a fishless cycle?

im just an ignorant drunk redneck from tennessee. cycling a tank doesnt take that long anyway, so why shortcut it?

 

[Luca Brazzi]

Fishless cycling using new media can take up to 2 months or more.

It only takes about 3 weeks for the Ammo to go to 0. If at that point you have high Nitrates, and you plan to stock with a few fish (then add more over time). You can shortcut the process by discontinuing to add ammonia, doing a few water changes to get rid of your Nitrites, then adding your fish.

The current Fishless cycling method out there says you must continue to add ammonia till the 2nd bacteria colony establishes itself enough to consume all of the Nitrite produced by the daily additions of 5ppm ammonia, and your Nitrite goes to 0. If you plan to fully stock or overstock your tank immediately with a bioload that needs that much bacteria, then by all means knock yourself out and continue till the "end", however, if you are only planning on adding a few fish at a time anyway, you can stop, and add your fish.

The fish that croaked were A) Feeder guppies and Rosey Reds that had one foot in the grave and the other on a greased banana peel, and B) Did so long after the Nitrites were at 0. As I said previously, I also had several Mollies in there (The mollies were not from the feeder tank) and not one of them died.