Flower Horns- question of what & why

[leliadax]

Hey Guys!
I am new to A.C. Forum and also to "Cichlids. I have bought my first ones just in the past 6 months. I fell in love with an oscar...then several more types since then, but, I am still learning a ton each week about them. Now, what I was wanting to know is about flower horns. I first saw a picture of one while searching for info on white red devils. I dont really understand why someone would cross 2 diffrent kind of fish, I would think it would be like breeding a poodle with a weenie dog. Will it not mess up the breed or do they become a breed of their own? I have read about Trimacs but I am not sure I have seen a picture of a true one, this is one of the ones that are crossed I found out but I also wanted to know what other cichlids they cross to get the flower horns. I am not totally sure how I feel about the cross breeds yet, kinda seems a shame in a way. Oh well, Thanks for any info.

 

[Harry Tolen]

I do not remember offhand what species they cross and in what order to create Flowerhorns (I think Trimacs and Midas/Red Devils are in there somewhere), but genetically speaking they stand little chance of establishing themselves as a new species, because they won't breed true.

"Collectible" Flowerhorns are created by re-crossing the parent species each time a new specimen is required. Breeding Flowerhorns to each other, however, leads to a random re-combination of genetic traits and results in "junk" fish; these fish are then sold inexpensively just to get rid of them, although they are marketed as "Flowerhorns" just to steal a little cachet from the original Asian breeders.

My personal feeling is that if you have the space for a Flowerhorn, you would be better off picking a Trimac. Just as lively and entertaining, and if you should get a pair and breed them, the offspring will be genetically stable and have value as purebred specimens of a somewhat uncommon species.

 

[leliadax]

Thank you, Harry

I appreciate your response. I have been thinking of a Trimac but I am a bit "leary" of buying one from our LFS. I had bought that "white" red devil for a BP, (before I realized BP's are not natural") and to make matters worse I realized after reading alot of info on them that the fish I had bought had been dyed. Well now it has lost all of the color and is a beautiful pearly white fish and getting big. It is a very agressive fish and I would not have bought it if I had known, but at the same time I would have missed out on a great fish. SO, back to the point, I just dont know if I would get a true Trimac and I would love to have one. I have also filpped for the Cichlasoma Synspilum but I saw several diffrent kinds of them and they all said C.S.'s but some had the big fat N. humps on their necks and had short fat bodies with purple-ish, lavender heads. I could not find the specific species name for the fish but I AM GONNA HAVE ONE OF THESE! I just dont understand why someone would cross species and mess up such beautiful creatures. I know the offspring of the hybrid fish will be junk, I found that out with my Koi about 10 years ago. I had gone to the farm where they were raised and hand picked at least 75 lbs of fish over a 4 year period (neighbors kids kept killing them, fishing for them...little jerks), but I had a few of them spawn and you know what I got? plain old green/black grass carp. Such a shame because the parent fish were fantastic. I really like this forum.Thanks again.

 

[tlaug]

WOW! Lets start by saying Flowerhorn do breed "true" Flowerhorns produce flowerhorns. Yes like any time you breed fish you have different traits that you like more and you keep those and cull the rest that don't have those traits. Unless you buy wild collected fish only then they fish you buy will have went through selective breeding. Most wild collected fish( I would not do this, because I think the wild fish are best left wild) are not as colorful as the farm raised fish due to selective breeding. If you own a nice flowerhorn you will see why people like them. Let's talk hybrid, lots of the fish you buy at the LFS are hybrids. Those assorted cichlid tanks most if not all of those fish are hybrids.

 

[Harry Tolen]

To set the record straight (again), and with all due respect to Flowerhorn lovers everywhere, there is a VAST difference between selective breeding for specific traits within a species, what you get when you cross different species, and, finally, what you get when you start breeding hybrids back to each other in succeeding generations.

When you breed hybrids together, you do not see a stable combination of traits emerging. Flowerhorns breeding together do not produce the snazzy showfish that you see on the Flowerhorn websites. Instead what you get are a lot of low-quality fish that may show some characteristics of the parent specimens, but are much more likely to be just a mess. Out of a batch of such fish, you might get one or two "attractive" specimens, but the odds of that happening are low, and you won't know until you've raised the fish close to or past maturity. Health problems will also abound. And if you showed even the best results to the breeders generating the original hybrids in Asia, they would reject them as inferior specimens, as they do with 99.9% of their own output, because it doesn't meet their "Flowerhorn-y" standards, which are the result of ruthless culling of hybrid offspring to select a few prize specimens. There's a reason why "real" Flowerhorns cost hundreds or thousands of dollars...because the number of acceptable fish is extremely small compared to the effort (both on the part of the fish and the breeders) required to produce and select them.

At to cichlids in general: responsible breeders zealously guard the purity of their species, and there are many sources where you can obtain such species and be confident of what you have. I myself have maintained a bloodline of Vieja synspila for the past 15 years, and can attest that they are not hybrids. Over at aquamojo.com, another site that primarily serves the cichlidiot community, you will find links to sources that can hook you up with the fish you are looking for, if you do not feel that you can trust your local fish stores to provide you with quality stock.

I would like to agree with tlaug on one particular point. Those assorted Africans you see in various low-quality fish stores are hybridized crap...just like the "Flowerhorns" you see for sale for $5.99. Again, if you are interested in a particular species, go to a responsible source and you will be able to find the fish you are looking for. You won't be able to buy them for $3.99, but you'll get something to add to your collection that you can be proud of.

leliadax: if you are thinking trimacs you must have a fairly large specimen or pair (with a divider) tank planned. Even synspila require a fair amount of room. How big a tank are you thinking of, exactly?

 

[tlaug]

I disagree. I breed flowerhorns and convicts and only keep about ten percent of the offspring from either the flowerhorn or the convict because of the selected traits I want in each species. I have just as many nice flowerhorns out of my pair as I do from my convict pairs. Sure the flowerhorns you see at most IFS are the culls, but most fish you see at the LFS are culls in any species. You do not fine A grade guppies at you chain stores or your LFS. It is the same with any fish you buy. The best fish are sold by the breeder to other breeders or collectors. I recommand always buying your "show piece fish" of any type from a breeder not your LFS (unless they breed that type of fish themselves,rare but happens).

 

[leliadax]

OK,...since I am new to Cichlids I have given alot of thought to which types to keep. I have decided...FOR ME...that it would be best to leave hybrids alone for now. I had rather get more familiar with straight bred species as best as my resources will allow.
Now to answer your question Harry, I have 1-75 gal. up and running with Oscars (gotta love em'), 1-55 gal. in waiting, 1-45 gal. hex. in waiting,1-10 gal. up and running occupied with 2 Cichlids I have no idea what kind they are (1-african whos cobalt blue with black stripes kinda cuda' looking)and 1 that I was told was a "white" red devil)., 1-2-gal holding tank for a hateful fat hog Cichlid that looks like a baby blue dolphin (flipper) to me.,3-10 gal. in attic, 1-3,200 outdoor pond that had held koi. But, I have decided to hold off on the Trimac until I can be sure the LFS guy will get me a good one...instead I gave him a shot at ordering me a Vieja synspila! I hope he gets it right. I ask for one 1 1/2 to 4 inches and told him I prefer the smaller fish in a better grade. I will know Monday as to size and price. I did have to drag myself out of the place because he had a Frontosa that was fantastic. It was about 4 1/2 inches and had the start of a BIG hump on its neck and the bars were perfectly defined. That little guy wuz callin' my name! but I did not get it...yet! HA!
I would hate to think that I had ever offended anyone because it is never my intention but for me, I feel that at this point in my fish keeping to continue with more hybrids would be like drinking a cup of decaffinated coffee; looks like coffee, taste like coffee...but no buzz. What do you have? I am still thinking on it, jury is not out yet but I am still trying to get the concept of the hybrids. Anyway thats just one persons thoughts. Thank you Guys for the posted replies, I appreciate all the information and views and thoughts. (I'm always listening)

HEY! HEY! I found a picture of one of my african cichlids(... that I dont know the kind), this Guy has it for his avaitar :Cypherman
That is exactly the same as 1 of mine.

 

[Harry Tolen]

leliadax: sounds like you are getting close to capacity there. Your oscars are fine in their 75g together, but some of your other fish are going to get larger and eventually require 75g tanks of their own. That includes your possible Vieja synspila. You will be able to use your 55g and your 45g tank as interim steps for these fish, but ultimately fish that get to be 12" or longer need a 75g tank to feel comfortable. Your africans will grow to be smaller, and can probably share the 55g long term.

Unless your local fish store is extremely reputable, his or her representations as to quality, etc. will be more or less made up on the spot. They generally deal with a limited number of suppliers who cater to the bulk trade, and what they get is what they get. Jeff Rapps, on the other hand, does a brisk business with cichlid afficionados nationwide (he ships), and has an excellent and well-known reputation. I still recommend that you go to aquamojo.com and look up the Jeff Rapps connections on that site and explore that as an option.


Good luck.

 

[fishnfst]

You want to check out Jeff Rapps' site tangled up in cichlids.. He had some purebred trimacs last time I looked.. His prices are failry reasonable as well.. It's the shipping that will get you.. Try to find someone local who wants to get a few fish as well then you can split the shipping....