Frustrated again with plants

[rogerramjet69]

I am about to give up again. I truly like live plants but I have never had any luck. I currently have a 75g setup with CO2 and about 1.5wpg lighting. I have too many fish (13 clown loaches alone) but I do not believe the fish are my main problem. I bought lots of plants several months ago from various locations and thought they would take off once I added co2 but that never happened. Since i have not found any reliable means of measuring co2 i just add 1bps (Red Sea). The plants at first seem to start looking better but then they stopped prospering shortly. My lighting is weak and I am thinking about gutting an old 48" hood and insert some high wattage CFL's into it for mega-lighting, but that probably won't happen until summer camping season is over. I gradually started removing plants that appeared to be failing (perhaps those that needed more lighting). I have some cryptos left, spiral vals, amazon swords that the loaches keep trimmed. Now i am being overtaken by hair algae that is growing on my java moss at the top of the tank and some green algae on glass. I have been back and forth over the years between plastic and live and wish i could just master the "live" aspect. I have read that you should load you tank with fast growing plants when you add co2 but good plants are not in abundant supply around here on a regular basis. I wish i could solve this problem. I have started (this am) doing double dosing of excel to try to control the algae. Since my lighting is weak, what plants would you recommend for good plant growth and algae control.
Here are some more details: Eheim Pro 2 canister filter, Aquaclear 1000 power filter, 8 hours of lighting, airstone overnight, 13 clown loaches, 2 polka dot loaches, 3 small loaches, 6 assorted platies, 3 flying fox, 1 red tail shark, 4 half dollar size veil angels, 3 swordtails, a few corys.
I haven't checked the water chemistry lately, but the last time i did all was well. We feed mostly flake once a day and every second or third day offer frozen brine or bloodworms.
No direct sunlight hits the tank.
The crypts seem to do well and are not eaten by the loaches. I have had several varieties of vals and all do poorly but I have a few corkscrew vals left which i put against the back wall. I normally do weekly 25% water changes except in summer when it may be every other week.
Water chemistry last time i checked was: pH 7.5, nitrates- 20, nitrites-0,ammonia-0. I have talked to other aquarists at various times and they have more luck with plants and use no co2 and do fewer water changes and no special lighting. I just don't understand what I am doing wrong.

 

[snoopy65]

If I read the post correctly, you do not have enough light to be using CO2. You need to stay with plants that are low to medium light. Your vals will melt and die from the Excel. I would pull the co2 until you can up grade your lighting. Here is a partial list of plants that I know do well with low/med light no co2 as they are in my tanks and are growing well. I do not use ferts or excel and have no algae problems with 1.5 wpg. I am sure others will chime in.

Anubias
Java Ferns
Jave Moss
Crypt Wendti
Amazon Sword
Rotala Rotundifolia
Anacharis
Watersprite
Pennywort
Hornwort
Frogbit
Water Lettuce
Dwarf Lily
Marimo Balls
Duck Weed
Giant Vals
Spiral Vals
Saggitaria Subulata

Hope this helps.

 

[Wycco]

The CO2 shouldn't hurt, not necessary, probably not helping much, but shouldn't hurt...

Except for, I think hair algae is one of the algae's that can be a pest with extra CO2 and you mention having it.

I had plants growing at .62 WPG- Java Fern, Java Moss, Water Wisteria, Baby Tears, Bacopa Caroliniana and Moneira, star grass, guppy grass.

I've got 2.2 WPG now- and everything grows faster and more healthy... but I can vouch for all the above even when I used to be at a measly .62wpg.

 

[theredchaser]

If you bought plants at a store/online, chances are they are emersed-grown instead of submerged-grown. Usually the plants start growing different shape leaves while the old ones all die off. If the leaves are dying but you see white roots, then the plant is still transitioning.

Usually the solve-all solution to plant problems is adding better lights and CO2. Is your CO2 being diffused effeciently?

Algae almost always forms because 1) too high nitrates/phosphates/iron 2) not enough micronutrients 3) not enough plants. Hair algae is caused by too much macronutrients in your water that isn't being taken up by your plants. I would try to get the nitrates down to around 10ppm since from my experience, ~15+ is usually when algae starts growing. Your phosphates might be high also. Green algae is caused by too long of a photoperiod. Try limiting the lighting to 6 hours at first and gradually increase it if it bugs you.

I recommend amazon frogbit to get the macros under control while lightly dosing micros. You can sell it as it grows or just throw it away. Root tabs are great for your larger plants. Excel tends to kill vals so that solves your val problem. You could try substituting sags for a similar look.

Don't get discouraged over algae since unless you painstakingly check your water all the time, you're bound to get at least a little bit. Good luck.

 

[jptjpt]

I think the problem here is too much fish and not enough plants/lighting leading to an abudant of nutrients for algae to grow. You have (35 large) fish that are outputting alot of wastes. If the filtration is doing well, you have plenty of nitrates and phosphates in the tank already. There is not enough light to stimulater faster growth so the nutrients are not being used up fast enough; hence the algae bloom.

You can reduce the nitrates/phosphates by reducing the number of fish in the tank and increasing the lighting up to 2wpg to start; and introducing a whole lot more plants into the tank. Dose potassium and trace as needed. Don't even think of dosing iron at this point b/c algae will love it. If you're using CO2, try to keep it constant. I wouldn't even use the airstone at night. You have enough aeration with the Aquaclear HOB filter; maybe too much to keep CO2 in the tank. Light is the limiting factor for plant growth right now, not CO2.

What 'theredchaser' said is right about getting emersed plants that maybe going through a transitional stage. As suggested, get floating plants and stem plants (any fast growers) to use up the excess nutrients and starve out the agae. Once you have it under control, you can start to cut back on them. Using root tabs in the gravel later on will keep the nutrients out of the water column. Another problem are the loaches. They really limit the kind of plants you can keep in the tank. Unfortunately, the kinds of plants you can keep in the tank (Java ferns, crypts, anubias, swords) with loaches and sharks are slower growing plants which will not be able to use up the excess nutrients quickly.

To summarize, you'll have to reduce the number of fish in the tank and change them over to something else. I love clown loaches, too, but ended up with dwarf chain loaches in my planted tank. When upgrading to higher light, don't make the mistake of putting too much light in the tank, you'll just inherit another set of problems. GL.

 

[Riiz]

Before you upgrade your lighting, I would work with the Co2 issues first. Light should always be your limiting factor, and low light with Co2 will not hurt anything. This should be the last upgrade, imo.

Since you dont use a drop-checker, you might not have more than a few ppm of Co2 in the first place. That AC 1000 will be definitely degassing the Co2, and you have not stated how you are diffusing CO2 currently.

 

[bsmith]

Co2 in any amount will only help the plants at ANY lighting level. In fact it is usually the limiting factor to most planted tanks.

 

[rogerramjet69]

Thank you all for your good comments. I am really frustrated. I have a Red Sea Pro system and it has a "diffuser" that spins the co2 in a small cylinder while in the tank. The water with dissolved co2 exits at the bottom. I bought a "gizmo" (sort of an inverted glass ball) that supposedly measures the co2 with pH reagant - this takes a day but always shows green which is supposedly the right color. Some say co2 will never hurt but if it is not really helping at this point maybe I could shut it down for now and work on getting more plants. Perhaps I will also shut off the evening airstone. My wife loves her loaches and they will be the last fish to go if we thin out the ranks. I will take some current test readings this week and see where the levels are. I did have nitrates over 40 in my 55 but when we upgraded to the 75 and made many changes in the fish community, the level went down significantly.

 

[Riiz]

In the DIY drop checker, you're not mixing tank water or even tap water with the pH reagent?

 

[rogerramjet69]

Riiz, you put 3-4 drops of reagant and about 2-3ml of tank water in the ball and then invert and put it into the tank. The exchange happens thru the air pocket. I have not found anything yet that realistically measures co2. I have tried taking a water sample in the evening and letting it set overnight and then testing for a difference in pH between this overnight sample and a fresh sample - the difference indicating a co2 reading. I always get the same reading. I also bought an inexpensive co2 test kit which seems to indicate very low co2. Perhaps it is starting to come clear that I am not really adding the co2 that I think I am. My favorite LFS has a display tank that is awesome. I asked many times what they do to attain "perfection" and they say daily or regular doses of Excel, Flourish and Comprehensive along with a high output light fixture with no co2 injection. I believe the tank is either a 90 or 120g. I have not committed to high output/high price lighting yet, but I came across a used co2 system that I thought would help. Honestly I don't think it has helped at all. I shut off my co2 last night for now and I also stopped my evening airstone. I tested Nitrates and they are 20 with Nitrites at 0. We are people who always overload our tanks with fish and go for extra filtering in hopes that that will take care of the overload but maybe we are being fooled and "overpopulation" is causing all of our grief over the years. I will discuss with wifey about doing some substantial thinning of the inhabitants, but everyone seems to get along well and be prospering. I would only remove the platies and angels and flying fox if I can catch them. I did have a third filter for a while - a Whisper 3 but someone told me I did not need it so I put it back into storage again. So many people were telling me my lighting was too low but I just visited your link and now I am not so sure. Is a light meter essential or just another nice piece of equipment? My current 75g is new as of April '09 but it is looking nasty with all the algae. I am going to get some more plants in hopes that they will thrive and starve the algae. Will lots of plants offset the high nitrate reading or do I still need to reduce population or feeding? I have to get ready for work. I will check in later or after work. thanks again for your help.