Fungas or Bacteria!? HELP!

[WWAquaria]

Hello,

Let me fill you in. I have an 80 gallon Freshwater tank with a 30 gallon sump on bottom that has the filter and heater in it. I have a variety of rainbow fish, angels, an albino rainbow shark, 2 asian upside down catfish, Congo tetras, 2 gold gouramis, 2 wonder killies, and an leopard ctenipoma(sorry for any spelling errors). I recently added some more congo tetras, and 2 neon rainbows. About a day later I moved the tank to my new home an hour away. After waiting for the RO system to fill up, I had the tank up and fully functional with 2 days. In the mean time they had fresh water and a spounge filter that had been running in the tank for a long time.

About 2 days ago (3-4 days after set up) I noticed my bosmani rainbows, and congo tetras had some kind of mouth fungus, tail rot, body slim, and a secondary infection from the tail rot.

They all have slime on their sides and in some spots it clumps up but you can only see it when the fish is facing right at you. It is clear when you view the fish from the side.

I have been treating them with Melafix and Pimafix but they seem to be getting worse.

I am considering changing medications to API T.C. Tetracycline. Any one know if this will help? If not, what should I use? How do I go about changing the medication?

My other thought was using API Triple Sulfa. Any one know about that one?

They still try to eat but am not sure how successful they are since most of them can not close their mouth. But they all are active but breathing rather hard.

Is it possible for fish to have both a baterial and fungus infection at the same time?

Can you treat for both at the same time?

Any input or opinions on medication is greatly appreciated.

I don't want to loose anyone but can seem to get them better.

Oh, and they are in a seperate "quarintine tank" with good airation. And I have been treating them for about 2-3 days.

Is it too early to change meds? They were getting better the first day but today, 3 days later, they are doing way worse.

Please Help!

Thank you!

 

[mel_20_20]

I'm afraid it sounds like you are describing Columnaris, a serious bacterial infection.
Here are pictures to help differentiate between fungus and bacterial infection, specifically Columnaris.
The first picture is fungus.


This is Coumnaris, which sounds like what you describe on your fish.


Does one of the above pictures seem to convey what your fish look like?Can you post pics of your fish?

If it is indeed Columnaris, then you are in serious trouble. It is very serious, but can be cured if addressed immediately.

I would use antibiotics that go after gram negative and gram positive.
Maracyn and Maracyn II are good ones.

You have fish in a hospital or quarantine tank, but it may be that the other fish have contracted this infection and are not showing signs of it.
You need to be extremely observant and look for any signs that the others have it.

You may have to treat the whole tank.

You need to keep their water in pristine conditions through daily big water changes if needed to keep ammonia and nitrites out of their water, since this will help their immune systems fight this. Test the parameters and make sure that you have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and nitrates at 20pp.

I feel pretty sure, from your description, that it is Columnaris, but can you post a pic?

 

[WWAquaria]

Okay......

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Above is my Congo Tetra. He is 1 of 3 that were new additions to the tank. He is the worst and the picture does not do complete justice.

You can see the spots on his sides, he has no tail left, and i just now noticed an open wound on his side about 1/4 inch from his tail. It looks like his tail is going to fall off! On him there is no mouth fungus at this time.


and next....

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Above is two of my three Bosmani Rainbow Fish. One of them has the slimy spots on the side like the Congo just not as bad and they both have what looks like mouth fungus.

I also have about 3-4 other fish still in my large fish tank that have white clumps of stuff on them.

What do you think?

I am going tomorrow to get the Merycin you suggested.

Thank you!

 

[mel_20_20]

It looks pretty bad. I'm so sorry but I'm afraid it is columnaris. I hope someone else with experience with Columnaris will come along and add their opinion.

I do think that this is bacterial and not fungal, and I would treat for bacterial infection with both meds: Maracyn and Maracyn II. Broad spectrum coverage is best and those two provide that. I have used those successfully in the treatment of a severe case of septicemia in one of my fish, and he recovered.

I would put some carbon filtration in your filter for a couple of hours or overnight to remove the meds you have been using, get the new meds and start in the morning, or as soon as possible right after a water change.

Follow the dosing instructions carefully. Make sure their tank is fresh and clean before the first dose. When you then add the dose, wait 24 hours or slightly less and do a big water change and then dose again.

Keep doing this. The meds are unavailable in the tank after a few hours so the big water changes do not interfere with the action of the medication.

The packaging says treat for five days, but I would go at least ten. If it is helping, the fish should start feeling better within probably 48 hours, but may not look a whole lot better for more days than that. If you don't start to see some improvement after three days the situation may need to be reviewed and other treatment options considered.

You just want to make sure to keep ammonia and nitrites out of the tank. I would get Prime conditioner, which will help by detoxifying any traces of ammonia and nitrites that could appear before you do the big water change the next day.

When you added fish to your tank did you quarantine them for about a month? I've learned that it is extremely important to always put new fish in QT and observe them, and I've read posts by the really long term fishkeepers that say you should observe them for thirty days.

I'm afraid that perhaps the new fish may have had a bacterial infection that was not obvious, and the stress of the move may have cause it to really take off, so to speak.

You do have a separate tank to use as a hospital to treat the ones with obvious signs of illness and it is good to treat the ones obviously sick in that.

I would observe the others, but make sure that their water is absolutely pristine and that you do not allow any ammonia and/or nitrites to be detectable, using a liquid test kit and not strips. Observe carefully for any behavior changes that may show up even before visual symptoms such as lesions or white patchy areas.

The API Master test kit is excellent and will save you money in the long run, as the strips are expensive and useless, really, because they are so unreliable.

It is imperative that their water is perfect, no ammonia, nitrites, and keep nitrates at 20ppm or less, through water changes as needed.

Their immune systems won't fight this if their water is less than perfect.

Prime will help. I can't stress this enough. It removes chlorine, chloramines, and detoxifies for about 24 hours but you must do the water changes within that time frame.

Feed lightly, and keep the water on the cool side of comfortable for the fish, since Columnaris and other bacterial disease like warm water.

Make sure you have good oxygenation in both tanks.

Observe the others in the main tank and at the first sign of more infection then I would start treating the whole tank, dosing and doing water changes as in the hospital tank.

You have your work cut out for you, and I'm so sorry for you and your poor sick fish that this has happened.

Please keep us posted on progress, and always post here for help, encouragement and support. We'll all be pulling for you and your fish.

 

[mel_20_20]

An addendum: I just noticed you use RO water in this tank. I'm not well versed in this but I have read many posts that say you should not use RO water in freshwater tanks. I noticed while reviewing some of your earlier posts that you do have saltwater tanks, so you have been used to using RO there, but the water is lacking in minerals and essentials that your freshwater fish need.

Just use conditioned tap water in your freshwater tank.

 

[WWAquaria]

Thank you so much for your input. I am going to go to the store first thing tomorrow morning and get those two meds you mentions.

I do have a QT tank. The sick fish are in it right now. I did QT the new fish but I guess not long enough. For now on it's a month in the QT for any newbies!

Thank you sooooo much for your help! I will give that a try and hopefully they will all pull through and no one else will get sick.

 

[WWAquaria]

...oh yeah and I will look into that RO/tapwater issue as well!

And any other input is well appreciated!

Thanks again!

 

[KarlTh]

RO has a place in freshwater tanks when the tapwater is too hard for the fish in question. The trick is to mix it with tapwater to get the required hardness.

Yes, that looks like columnaris on the mouth, but I think there could be Chilodinella or Costia (Google them for pics) on the body.

 

[LeahK]

Good advice from everyone--I agree that it's columnaris and thus bacterial.
Like Melody said, Maracyn I and II are good meds, but note that Maracyn II will be rendered much less effective if your GH is over 200. I don't know anything about RO water either, but I'm guessing that you won't have a probelm with the GH issue (although, like Melody said, RO water isn't good for freshwater fish).
Anyway, I just wanted to add that, if you can't find the Maracyns, a combo of kanamycin and nitrofurazone is also good for columnaris. These are available under many brand names--check the labels at the store. Here's a link to my favorite, most comprehensive site, on antibiotoc meds: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication2.html
I hope things start improving for you!

 

[WWAquaria]

Thank you everyone for your help!

I found both meds at my local Petsmart and started treatment today. The three in the pictures above are the worst and are doing pretty bad right now. The other guys are not to bad. They actually look pretty good and... I saved my Discus! YEAH! My Discus now no longer has any signs, he/she only had minor signs but treated anyways just to be safe. He/she will remain in the QT for a little while just to be sure it is safe.

Thanks again to everyone and I will keep you updated on my findings.