Furunculosis

[SubRosa]

Although this could be Aeromonas salmonicida Sp. but i have my doubts. Since you can make best diagnosis and with an assumption that this is reoccurrences of A. salmonicida, Furan 2 may assist in control of pathogens but not to eradicate/eliminate completely. In case fish are still eating, soaking staples in med water may render better/faster results.
If memory serves, chloroamphenicol should do the much needed trick but not avail to public anymore. Next best thing might be use of OxyTetracycline. This should be readily avail in lfs dependig on location.

From my experiences, one or couple of tank is not the way to treat this diseases. I had better results when several tanks were used per treatment. Another words, moving fish from one treatment tank to new and cleaner environment. I know this may not be possible with most hobbyists. Just an idea if someone has room to do so.

btw, why dont you speak to either biochemist/pharmacologist at API (mfr of Furan 2) for assistance.

Provide info of your situation and They may be able to give you an other advices and options as well

Chloramphenicol is indeed the med of choice and is widely available if you know where to look. Due to it's link with a blood condition known as aplastic anemia it is no longer prescribed for humans in the US but is widely used in poorer countries due to its low price and high level of effectiveness. It is however still given to dogs. A friendly vet can help you out. I keep some on hand for treating chytrid in Dart Frogs. If the op would like to try it I have plenty to spare.

 

[Juice]

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Vibrio_Aeromonas.html

3/4 down is the section on Furunculosis but read the rest of the article as well.

Thanks that was a very informative article

I would prefer not to start from scratch whenever possible. No matter how immaculate the tank may be, it will be bio active as soon as you start cycling process. Once one fish is added, you tank will be even more diverse harboring not just beneficial but alos pathogenic. microbes. It's all matter of controlling by providing what should be optimal water condition for fish you keep. Less stress, better immune system to fight off pathogenic invader s.

I would prefer tot take this oppotunity to see what you can learn with problems you are situated with. Hopefully what you may learn from this mishap will prevent further complications/implications/losses down the road.

If completer cleaning of tank must be done, I would sterilize the tank (w/o any inhabitants of course)by turning freshwater tank into saltwater tank for few days. Then, drain the tank completely with f/w, aged if possible regardless of tap water conditioner. Let it run for few days. Repaeat this procedure and voila!, you have sterilize the tank without taking apart to clean.


hope things settle down soon.

Well the only way I would start over is if there were no fish left. I'm trying my best to figure out what could be the issue. The danio that has been sick is still alive which is amazing to me considering the others died within a few days. He hadn't been eating over the course of a week and started to look very gaunt, just as I was sure he was ready to go, he came up for some food and to my surprise ate a pretty good amount of it. He developed an open sore and had what looked to be bubbles coming out of it...that has healed up quite a bit in the last few days, so I take that as a good sign.

Chloramphenicol is indeed the med of choice and is widely available if you know where to look. Due to it's link with a blood condition known as aplastic anemia it is no longer prescribed for humans in the US but is widely used in poorer countries due to its low price and high level of effectiveness. It is however still given to dogs. A friendly vet can help you out. I keep some on hand for treating chytrid in Dart Frogs. If the op would like to try it I have plenty to spare.

I'm so confused at this point as to what to treat this tank with. Some say it may be furunculosis and others say doubtful but still are not quite sure what it COULD be. I'm really not at all great with illness and disease so I don't honestly trust myself to make the proper decision in that area. I have seen some improvement in the fish since I have been using the E.M but am not sure if it has or will do the trick. This is all very discouraging and stressful to say the least! I knew eventually I would face some challenges in this hobby but I never thought it would be this bad. I guess I'm waiting for someone to have an AHA! moment and be able to tell me exactly what this is but I know that is not very likely or realistic and I at this point don't have my hopes set on it.
Thanks so much for the offer of meds btw, if I do in fact figure out this is what has been the issue with my tank, I will GLADLY take you up on that offer, as vets out this way tend to over charge for anything they can.

 

[mel_20_20]

I believe this probably is Aeromonas hydrophila rather than Aeromonas salmonicida.

The latter is more commonly the pathogen that causes the illness known as Furunculosis and it occurs mostly in cold water fish, though it can occur in tropical fish. I believe the ulcerations in Aeromonas s. would develop quicker and be more dramatic in appearance.

At any rate, Aeromonas h. can be the culprit in hemorrhagic septicemia, which I think this probably is. There are other pathogens that can cause septicemia, but often it is Aeromonas.

A cellulitis, or deep tissue infection, can occur with septicemia due to Aeromonas, and the infection can eventually extend to the surface of the skin and cause a pimple-like boil (furuncle) or ulcer to form. The red points or spots and then splotchy areas can certainly be both a symptom of septicemia and also deep tissue infection. Of course the infection can also be wreaking havoc with the internal organs as well, which can lead to dropsy due to organ failure.

* I have successfully treated hemorrhagic septicemia with Minocycline, or Maracyn 2, but I think Chloramphenicol, as suggested by Cerianthus and Sub Rosa, would be the most likely "magic bullet" for this outbreak.

* If you can, I would take Sub Rosa's offer and get him to send you some Chloramphenicol ASAP, if you can't get it locally.

At this point I don't know if it could get the Chloramphenicol to you fast enough to turn things around, unless you could ask a local vet or get Sub Rosa's meds overnighted to you.

(I tried to get it for an African Dwarf frog with Chytrid and my vet was willing to help, but she didn't have any of it . She gave me a script to have it compounded at a local pharmacy but they wanted $78 to do a very small quantity.)

* My next choice would be Furan 2 and Kanamycin together. Oxytetracycline is good. Maracyn 2 is good.


* Since you've been using the E.M. Erythromycin you've continued to have losses; I don't know if this is going to stop the progression of this through your tank occupants. If you can't get the other meds mentioned, you might try to mix some in food to get it into them internally to try to help the effectiveness.

Aeromonas bacteria are almost always present in most tanks and usually don't cause an outbreak until something weakens the immune system of the fish.

Your tank has been cycled and stable, your parameters are good. Do you use a liquid test kit? Strips may be giving inaccurate readings of your parameters.

Common stressors are unstable temperature, overcrowding, handling stress, poor filtration, high ammonia, nitrite, nitrate levels, unstable pH, high amounts of organic decomposition (often in the gravel or filters). Parasites can be a factor.

Your tank is 12 gallons, I think you said in one of the other threads, and the parameters are more prone to sudden swings in smaller tanks, (speaking from experience with a 10 gallon), is this a possibility?

It sounds like you have a good routine of keeping the water quality good, but do you vacuum the substrate regularly to remove decaying mulm, debris, leftover food? Decaying food can be a medium for bacterial growth and when eaten may be a factor.

I would try to keep the water pristine, and I would use Prime to help detoxify any traces of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate during the treatment period. Improving oxygen levels and circulation is important for prevention and recovery so you might add an airstone if possible.

Can you tell us about your gh/kh and ph in the tank just before water changes, and what those parameters are in the water straight from the tap? I think I read that your habit is to change the water once a week at about 50%, is that correct? Unstable ph can be a factor, but more significantly swings in TDS.

Forgive me for asking questions you may have answered in other threads, and I don't mean to be asking questions that sound like I think you're inexperienced... I'm just throwing things out there to try to figure this out, I really want to help. I'm sorry I'm so late getting in on this with you, but things have been really hectic at my house for quite a while.

I hope your fish get better... I'm so sorry you're going through this difficulty and for your losses... I know it hurts to lose these lovely little creatures, and you are trying so hard to save them.

 

[Juice]

I believe this probably is Aeromonas hydrophila rather than Aeromonas salmonicida.

The latter is more commonly the pathogen that causes the illness known as Furunculosis and it occurs mostly in cold water fish, though it can occur in tropical fish. I believe the ulcerations in Aeromonas s. would develop quicker and be more dramatic in appearance.

At any rate, Aeromonas h. can be the culprit in hemorrhagic septicemia, which I think this probably is. There are other pathogens that can cause septicemia, but often it is Aeromonas.

A cellulitis, or deep tissue infection, can occur with septicemia due to Aeromonas, and the infection can eventually extend to the surface of the skin and cause a pimple-like boil (furuncle) or ulcer to form. The red points or spots and then splotchy areas can certainly be both a symptom of septicemia and also deep tissue infection. Of course the infection can also be wreaking havoc with the internal organs as well, which can lead to dropsy due to organ failure.

* I have successfully treated hemorrhagic septicemia with Minocycline, or Maracyn 2, but I think Chloramphenicol, as suggested by Cerianthus and Sub Rosa, would be the most likely "magic bullet" for this outbreak.

* If you can, I would take Sub Rosa's offer and get him to send you some Chloramphenicol ASAP, if you can't get it locally.

At this point I don't know if it could get the Chloramphenicol to you fast enough to turn things around, unless you could ask a local vet or get Sub Rosa's meds overnighted to you.

(I tried to get it for an African Dwarf frog with Chytrid and my vet was willing to help, but she didn't have any of it . She gave me a script to have it compounded at a local pharmacy but they wanted $78 to do a very small quantity.)

* My next choice would be Furan 2 and Kanamycin together. Oxytetracycline is good. Maracyn 2 is good.


* Since you've been using the E.M. Erythromycin you've continued to have losses; I don't know if this is going to stop the progression of this through your tank occupants. If you can't get the other meds mentioned, you might try to mix some in food to get it into them internally to try to help the effectiveness.

Aeromonas bacteria are almost always present in most tanks and usually don't cause an outbreak until something weakens the immune system of the fish.

Your tank has been cycled and stable, your parameters are good. Do you use a liquid test kit? Strips may be giving inaccurate readings of your parameters.

Common stressors are unstable temperature, overcrowding, handling stress, poor filtration, high ammonia, nitrite, nitrate levels, unstable pH, high amounts of organic decomposition (often in the gravel or filters). Parasites can be a factor.


Your tank is 12 gallons, I think you said in one of the other threads, and the parameters are more prone to sudden swings in smaller tanks, (speaking from experience with a 10 gallon), is this a possibility?

It sounds like you have a good routine of keeping the water quality good, but do you vacuum the substrate regularly to remove decaying mulm, debris, leftover food? Decaying food can be a medium for bacterial growth and when eaten may be a factor.

I would try to keep the water pristine, and I would use Prime to help detoxify any traces of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate during the treatment period. Improving oxygen levels and circulation is important for prevention and recovery so you might add an airstone if possible.

Can you tell us about your gh/kh and ph in the tank just before water changes, and what those parameters are in the water straight from the tap? I think I read that your habit is to change the water once a week at about 50%, is that correct? Unstable ph can be a factor, but more significantly swings in TDS.

Forgive me for asking questions you may have answered in other threads, and I don't mean to be asking questions that sound like I think you're inexperienced... I'm just throwing things out there to try to figure this out, I really want to help. I'm sorry I'm so late getting in on this with you, but things have been really hectic at my house for quite a while.

I hope your fish get better... I'm so sorry you're going through this difficulty and for your losses... I know it hurts to lose these lovely little creatures, and you are trying so hard to save them.

Hey Mel!

So glad you got a chance to take a look at my thread and wow tons of great info.

It's a planted tank but I do, regularly vacuum the bottom with water changes. It has a heater that is set at 78 and I use prime as my water conditioner. The fish do seem to get a little stressed out around water changing time when I have to be around the tank more they will get nervous. Also I left the lights off when I went on a short trip out of town, maybe that stressed them?

I did add a few rocks recently that passed the vinegar test and got boiled and scrubbed, maybe this caused a ph swing that I missed. That is something I had been thinking about also.

If 50% wc's are too large to do on a smaller tank then I will definitely be taking that down to whatever would be more suitable, no problem at all. It'd mean less work for me anyhow, which is always nice.

Down to medications, I have on hand furan 2, I can talk to the vet about pricing on the other med tomorrow although I'd like to use what I have on hand IF it will work. Would a anti bacterial fish food work well for them along side the other treatment?

It's very hard losing these little creatures..I get super attached to all of mine, but I will feel better knowing that I did everything I could to save them.

Thanks again for taking time out to give me some insight, it's nice to have a true idea of what may be going on and finally have something to work off of

 

[mel_20_20]

I don't think 50% once a week is bad at all, really. I have a 10 gallon that I do just that way, it's only if you find that the tank water has become very different than the tap water regarding ph and TDS. Fish can actually take ph swings fairly well, it's more the differences in the gh/kh TDS, which I had a problem with at one time with a small tank.

You might try to do more frequent slightly smaller ones, such as 35% twice a week, or even 50% twice a week is ok. I don't really think you're stressing them with the water changes, unless you're removing them from the tank when you do water changes.

I'm on my iPhone and this is taking me forever to type, I'm so dang pokey slow at texting; I'm going to go get on my laptop and get some coffee. (I'm still in bed being a slug this morning- late night, lol)

 

[mel_20_20]

If you start with Furan 2 I'd do a big water change first and run some carbon for about an hour. Jungle labs medicated Antibacterial food has one of the two ingredients that are in Furan 2: Nitrofurazone, and the other ingredient is sodium sulfathiazole.

This stuff must not be very tasty so you might need to pulverize the little granules and soak some frozen bloodworms in it... or drop the granules in some freshly squeezed garlic juice to make it more tasty. Don't give them other food so they will have no choice and hopefully will eat some of it.

I'm not positive about soaking food in Furan 2, because I'm not sure about the other ingredient, Furazolidone, regarding the safety of ingesting it. My guess would be that it's safe, but I'm not sure.

There's a lot of disagreement about water changes with dosing, but I've found if you can do huge water changes every 24 hours just before a dose, using carefully temp matched and conditioned water, the treatment works better. Pristine water is of utmost importance and removing dissolved organic compounds and any traces of ammonia helps them fight the illness.

You can even overdose a bit with Prime with no ill effects, but I would add and airstone just to help. Prime can reduce the O2 a bit at the recommended overdose levels, and in general the fish will feel better with more O2.

Many of the experienced fishkeepers here agree with me on that, some disagree, and I've spoken to researchers at Jungle Labs, API and other med manufacturers and most meds do break down in a few hours and don't have a beneficial cumulative effect that justifies allowing the levels of ammonia and DOC to build up. Most of the researchers have told me that the major concern is that the fishkeeper won't do a big enough water change to remove the leftover degraded antibiotic that is in the tank.

I do 80 to 90% wc when doing this and never have a problem with the fish being so traumatised that it impairs their ability to recover.

Having said all that, this may not help. Sometimes an infection is too advanced to turn around. I hope that this will not be the case, but please know that you are doing a great job trying your best to help these little guys.

 

[SubRosa]

I use Furan all the time to make medicated food. No problems that I've observed.

 

[Cerianthus]

Chloramphenicol is indeed the med of choice and is widely available if you know where to look. Due to it's link with a blood condition known as aplastic anemia it is no longer prescribed for humans in the US but is widely used in poorer countries due to its low price and high level of effectiveness. It is however still given to dogs. A friendly vet can help you out. I keep some on hand for treating chytrid in Dart Frogs. If the op would like to try it I have plenty to spare.

Although good intention but should not offer banned substances unless certified/qualified.....

 

[Cerianthus]

Juice, Contact biochemist/pharmacologist/microbiologist at API ot other MFR. I am sure they can assist you in diagnose.

Like I said, I have my doubts if this is a case of what you may think it is due to fact that you take care of your tank well. Perhaps too well!!!

Look at my thread on marine section (Fowler Sect) where I have set up saltwater tank the same day I introduced few fish. No losses other than skin infections due to handling when catching with seine net. Only application I have used was f/w dip and Bacitracin Oinment treatment as per necessary. Hopefully my sons will take care of this tank since they are the ones who sak me to set up larger tank. I'll probably have another tank set up as reserve tank with small powerhead for emergencies.

I noticed overuse/ improper dispensing of meds on too many occassions (with good intention of corse) when misdiagnosis takes places by keeper and/or other info gathered thru forums (sometimes more confusing as many suggestions are off the books/literature) Facts and actual experiences will provide more useful info. When you hit the wall with problems & no great successes are yielded, try contacting Pros at research labs as I suggested.

If your recovery is successful, you can post your experiences with all the details so others may benefit for their fish.


Good Luck!
btw, Kanamycin is not one of my choices for treatment/control of Furunculosis.

 

[SubRosa]

Although good intention but should not offer banned substances unless certified/qualified.....

Your word comprehension is sorely lacking. It is not a banned substance. It is still prescribed in the US for topical usage in humans and for veterinary use, which is exactly what I offered it for. And while I'm not certified I and many others including the veterinarian who will fill any scrip I ask for when I explain what I want it for would humbly suggest that I am very qualified in the area of veterinary pharmacology. It's an area of special interest for me.