agreed on the cross breeding and hybridization, but isn't inbreeding (to a certain extent) how show quality fish are perfected? then again, i could just be an idiot (usually the case)
FYI about Flowerhorn fish
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agreed on the cross breeding and hybridization, but isn't inbreeding (to a certain extent) how show quality fish are perfected? then again, i could just be an idiot (usually the case)
WetmanNY, many experts are wrong too as quoted in Ron Coleman's article, "The blood parrot cichlid is a man-made hybrid. The exact origins of the fish are unclear but it appears to be a cross between a South American cichlid, likely the severum (Heros severus) and a Central American cichlid, likely the midas cichlid (Amphilophus citrinellum) or the red devil (Amphilophus labiatum)."
The appearance of BP being a cross between Severum and Midas is remotely possible because the two species are remotely related. If BP were a hybrid, it's more likely between two CA species than between species from two continents. All CA belong to Cichlasomine line, but CA and SA are remotely related. The mutant theory is more plausible because many mutants are infertile, not hybrid.
In breeding to produce certain desirable traits is a common practice in tropical fish as seen in Betta, goldfish, angel, discus and all long-veiled fish. Cross breeding is common practice in live bearers and discus as well as in ornamental plants, food crop and domesticated animals. Moral or not is a perspective view point. All tropical fish can escape to streams and desimate native species but I have not heard of escaped cross breed contaminating pure species in the wild. It's only a problem with domesticated stock but cross breed or not, domesticated stock will begin to deviate genetically from wild type soon after human domestication. Look at how different these fish deviate from the wild genotype: Oscar, angels, discus and goldfish.
The appearance of BP being a cross between Severum and Midas is remotely possible because the two species are remotely related. If BP were a hybrid, it's more likely between two CA species than between species from two continents. All CA belong to Cichlasomine line, but CA and SA are remotely related. The mutant theory is more plausible because many mutants are infertile, not hybrid.
In breeding to produce certain desirable traits is a common practice in tropical fish as seen in Betta, goldfish, angel, discus and all long-veiled fish. Cross breeding is common practice in live bearers and discus as well as in ornamental plants, food crop and domesticated animals. Moral or not is a perspective view point. All tropical fish can escape to streams and desimate native species but I have not heard of escaped cross breed contaminating pure species in the wild. It's only a problem with domesticated stock but cross breed or not, domesticated stock will begin to deviate genetically from wild type soon after human domestication. Look at how different these fish deviate from the wild genotype: Oscar, angels, discus and goldfish.
All of which makes for a well informed debate. The problem with the discussion is that you're not looking at the lines of reasoning that originally made the theory of a hybrid, more readily acceptable. The fish you named will all produce viable fry. Parrot cichlids do not. When you hybridize an animal you get mismatched numbers of chromosomes. This is how a mule can have very much the same characteristics, with every cross of a donkey and a horse. The cross itself creates a stable "stamp" of a look on the hybrid, but they are 99% infertile, duh to that mismatched chromosome. 1% are fertile though. This isn't a well known fact, because it would be a huge waste of time to attempt to figure out which of the 100 would be fertile, and then cross them back on one of the two types of parents, when you can get a fairly accurate copy, just by making the same cross again.
Occasional blood parrots are fertile, but usually only when spawning with some other form of cichlid, not each other. You hear stories of it happening, and technically it WOULD be possible, but I have yet to actually talk to anyone that's done it themselves and raised fry to see what they looked like, let alone seen pictures.
This, as much as anything else, is what has made the common consensus on these fish what it is, that they are hybrids, and not some form of true breeding mutant. If they were true breeding, they would be able to spawn themselves. Oscars, angels, and those other fish you named can, and when crossed back into less line bred forms, you strengthen and hearten the fry.
There is also another "parrot" type cichlid available in the hobby that I've seen marketed as "toffee" cichlids, that are obviously a convict/? cross, that they then dye. As long as people will BUY these things, they're going to keep putting them out into the market, IMO.
Barbie
Occasional blood parrots are fertile, but usually only when spawning with some other form of cichlid, not each other. You hear stories of it happening, and technically it WOULD be possible, but I have yet to actually talk to anyone that's done it themselves and raised fry to see what they looked like, let alone seen pictures.
This, as much as anything else, is what has made the common consensus on these fish what it is, that they are hybrids, and not some form of true breeding mutant. If they were true breeding, they would be able to spawn themselves. Oscars, angels, and those other fish you named can, and when crossed back into less line bred forms, you strengthen and hearten the fry.
There is also another "parrot" type cichlid available in the hobby that I've seen marketed as "toffee" cichlids, that are obviously a convict/? cross, that they then dye. As long as people will BUY these things, they're going to keep putting them out into the market, IMO.
Barbie
My reading of the relevant material leads me to agree with Barbie and WetmanNY. Infertility is much more a characteristic of hybridization than it is of mutancy (is that a word, "mutancy"?). Furthermore, if Blood Parrots are infertile, then they would already be extinct, as you cannot expect the same mutation to occur over and over again. On the other hand, if what you are dealing with is a hybrid, you can do that over and over again, simply by re-crossing the same parent species (in a petrie dish, if necessary).
All known fish hybrids are fertile, which include all Rift Lake cichlid hybrids, Central American cichlid hybrid, Red Swordtail and many hybrid live bearers, Hibrid Tilapia, Hybird Pearl/Blue Gourami hybrid, and a long list. Not only that hybrid fish are typically fertile, they often exhibit hybrid vigor that they grow larger and stronger.
Known fish mutants, on the other hand, are either infertile or low in fertility, which include Blue Dampsey, black angel, ballon molly, all albinos, and fancy golfish. The mutant genes are recessive and pairing two mutants is either fatal or produces weak offsprings, but pariing one mutant with another normal fish is fertile. Black angels have been known to be a very weak strain and produce high fry fatality. Many fancy goldfish are infertile and can only be cross bred with a more normal form to produce a small percentage of desirable mutants. Blue Dampsey are infertile but can be bred with normal Dampsey and produces a persentage of blue dampsey. Similarly, Blood Parrots are infertile, but it is possible to produce more Blood Parrots by cross breeding with normal Red Devel or with another noraml CA species.
One often quotes Mule as an example of hybrid infertility. It is a fundamentally WRONG assumption because Mule is a mammal and mammal and fish sex are completely different.
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Problems with fry being extremely sensitive and not hardy, do NOT equate nonviable fry. They are too distinctly separate issues. Hybrids from different continents would have developed a more diverse chromosome pattern or count from fish that originated all from the same type of fish, such as the hybrids that occur in the family Maylandia, and other rift lake cichlids.
Black angels, Blue Dempseys, and other line bred "man made types" do indeed benefit from infusions of wild genes without the inbred problems that fish that have been line bred can develop. Those fish have been purposely bred back into fish with the same characteristics, to enhance recessive genetics, which also gives you the risk of enhancing the undesirable traits.
By stating that single cross with a red devil strengthens the blood parrots "strain" enough, you yourself are proving the point that they aren't genetically sound, but need an infusion of genes that have the proper pairing.
The other fish you mentioned all may have weak fry, but they DO hatch, and can be carefully raised. Blood parrots do not.
A hybrid is a hybrid as far as genetics go, be it mammal, fish, or any other form of life. Period.
Barbie
Black angels, Blue Dempseys, and other line bred "man made types" do indeed benefit from infusions of wild genes without the inbred problems that fish that have been line bred can develop. Those fish have been purposely bred back into fish with the same characteristics, to enhance recessive genetics, which also gives you the risk of enhancing the undesirable traits.
By stating that single cross with a red devil strengthens the blood parrots "strain" enough, you yourself are proving the point that they aren't genetically sound, but need an infusion of genes that have the proper pairing.
The other fish you mentioned all may have weak fry, but they DO hatch, and can be carefully raised. Blood parrots do not.
A hybrid is a hybrid as far as genetics go, be it mammal, fish, or any other form of life. Period.
Barbie
