I was trying to illustrate how legal markets can benefit illicit ones. Wasn't really making any sort of point about conservation.
Government in the hobby?
- Thread starter Fractalis
- Start date
I was trying to illustrate how legal markets can benefit illicit ones. Wasn't really making any sort of point about conservation.
When legal markets are productive, it is easy to insert poached in with the tank raised and simply call them by another name. people clamor for "F0's" because the tank raised fish have been bred into a mutant unhealthy waste of a specimen. Just like puppy mills, fish mills are the new scuz hobby. The demand for quality F0's will continue to support and foster smuggling and illegal poaching.
As an example, we had a member that was going to try to get 2 fish to cross-breed on purpose. No safeguards, no scientific trials, just let them breed. His intent was the to sell them openly, give them away, or dump them. It is this that the gov't want to stop. Is this the new hobby of which we can be proud of? or do we try to farm and sustain species that may go extinct?
As an example, we had a member that was going to try to get 2 fish to cross-breed on purpose. No safeguards, no scientific trials, just let them breed. His intent was the to sell them openly, give them away, or dump them. It is this that the gov't want to stop. Is this the new hobby of which we can be proud of? or do we try to farm and sustain species that may go extinct?
Well, personally I'm going to stick with legal fish and maybe become a breeder someday. The good kind of breeder 
And not because they are able to exploit an ecosystem because they have no natural predators?
It sucks that one jerk can ruin it for the rest of us, and while I don't agree with every single regulation, the overall concept is needed at this point in time.
there are so many different arguments that are valid in so many different directions it's ridiculous.
i could certainly understand laws being passed that basically add up to "if your pet could possibly survive and reproduce in your region, then it should be illegal" within a reasonable outline of course. i mean, to outright ban dogs and cats that aren't indigenous at this point is laughable, but the last bill they tried to pass would have inadvertently done just that... and made most of our population outlaws by default. although there might have been some good intent, it would have been a blanket bill that covered justification of any and all action to eradicate anything any law official doesn't understand specifically.
now... i can see temporary conservation acts put into place where necessary. for example... if you want to own an exotic species in florida, you may have to volunteer to capture a certain number of wild introduced animals that are adding to the decimation of the indigenous species and bring them into a central location where they can be put to sleep or sold an distributed to areas where they simply cannot affect the local wildlife. this would allow the professionals to focus better on the more dangerous species to make their efforts more worthwhile and give them a chance to actually succeed.
registration of any and all pets could certainly help. mandatory permits posted clearly listing any and all animals in any cages to go with those permits could certainly help as well. this could give every day folks a way to obviously identify when there's an illegal animal in an acquaintances home. of course provisions could be made for those who legally trade animals whereas they could have different certifications and such so every animal in every cage doesn't always have to be listed exactly and so on, but that's not for me to work out the details. the registration and permits don't necessarily have to be a tax or profit making scheme for the government, either... just enough to pay for the paper, ink, printer, pc, office and the person printing them up... maybe $2 - $5 each, etc..
now i know my ideas aren't perfect... or even thought out... this is just a rant, kinda. but it's a foundation that can be built upon and used where applicable. something that takes the pressure off the conservationists who inevitably have no option but to lose the battle as things are right now... while still not removing any more of the civil liberties we've come to know and expect as americans.
i could certainly understand laws being passed that basically add up to "if your pet could possibly survive and reproduce in your region, then it should be illegal" within a reasonable outline of course. i mean, to outright ban dogs and cats that aren't indigenous at this point is laughable, but the last bill they tried to pass would have inadvertently done just that... and made most of our population outlaws by default. although there might have been some good intent, it would have been a blanket bill that covered justification of any and all action to eradicate anything any law official doesn't understand specifically.
now... i can see temporary conservation acts put into place where necessary. for example... if you want to own an exotic species in florida, you may have to volunteer to capture a certain number of wild introduced animals that are adding to the decimation of the indigenous species and bring them into a central location where they can be put to sleep or sold an distributed to areas where they simply cannot affect the local wildlife. this would allow the professionals to focus better on the more dangerous species to make their efforts more worthwhile and give them a chance to actually succeed.
registration of any and all pets could certainly help. mandatory permits posted clearly listing any and all animals in any cages to go with those permits could certainly help as well. this could give every day folks a way to obviously identify when there's an illegal animal in an acquaintances home. of course provisions could be made for those who legally trade animals whereas they could have different certifications and such so every animal in every cage doesn't always have to be listed exactly and so on, but that's not for me to work out the details. the registration and permits don't necessarily have to be a tax or profit making scheme for the government, either... just enough to pay for the paper, ink, printer, pc, office and the person printing them up... maybe $2 - $5 each, etc..
now i know my ideas aren't perfect... or even thought out... this is just a rant, kinda. but it's a foundation that can be built upon and used where applicable. something that takes the pressure off the conservationists who inevitably have no option but to lose the battle as things are right now... while still not removing any more of the civil liberties we've come to know and expect as americans.
Your ideas of "How to" are good but unfortunately, they will be circumnavigated just like they are now. I'm with you in creating control, but as you pointed out already, is fraught with details and enforcement problems. There will always be those that thumb their noses at any effort to control. As much as I am against it, I don't see any other viable option.
If there is a way for a species to survive in the wild, it certainly will regardless of their preferred habitat. They will adapt. As far as registration goes, all you have to do is look at sex offender registration, weapon registration, alien national registration, etc to see that it doesn't work. Any registration enacted without clearly defined penalties and enforcement is a toothless paper tiger. We have enough of those already.
Are you willing to turn in your neighbor or friend? That's a tough one!
If there is a way for a species to survive in the wild, it certainly will regardless of their preferred habitat. They will adapt. As far as registration goes, all you have to do is look at sex offender registration, weapon registration, alien national registration, etc to see that it doesn't work. Any registration enacted without clearly defined penalties and enforcement is a toothless paper tiger. We have enough of those already.
Are you willing to turn in your neighbor or friend? That's a tough one!
it's not my neighbor, i'd worry about. it's when my neighbor comes over with their "friend" that has "strong feelings". there's always that one back stabbing person that pops up when you least expect it. or... that was more the idea. EDIT: in my case, it would certainly work if certain pets weren't registered considering peoples irrational fear of snakes. mine is over 6' long. 
this is what i meant, though... a start. that as well was the point of registration. every law fails somewhere. they're made by people. but at least registration would start us in the right direction... buy time until it's replacement becomes apparent. i agree, there's going to be endless ways around it, but it certainly would limit how many people are getting around it for a while.
you have to understand as well, the ideas i presented are more of a way to circumnavigate the circa patriot act style blanket no pets allowed type of bill's they tried to rename over and over with no real change in legislation in how the bills were written. not only would they have been overwhelming and taxing on the policing agencies, but the economy, the people, etc. to the point there was no way they could have continued to be enforced... all while raping the already failing economy of entire industries based on pets and their trades.
as well... this is where our legislators should be starting... from the ground up. someone posing an idea like mine... someone discussing, opposing and pointing out the inevitable failures like your statement... then amendments (not only in the bill number and name, etc.).
good discussion!
this is what i meant, though... a start. that as well was the point of registration. every law fails somewhere. they're made by people. but at least registration would start us in the right direction... buy time until it's replacement becomes apparent. i agree, there's going to be endless ways around it, but it certainly would limit how many people are getting around it for a while.
you have to understand as well, the ideas i presented are more of a way to circumnavigate the circa patriot act style blanket no pets allowed type of bill's they tried to rename over and over with no real change in legislation in how the bills were written. not only would they have been overwhelming and taxing on the policing agencies, but the economy, the people, etc. to the point there was no way they could have continued to be enforced... all while raping the already failing economy of entire industries based on pets and their trades.
as well... this is where our legislators should be starting... from the ground up. someone posing an idea like mine... someone discussing, opposing and pointing out the inevitable failures like your statement... then amendments (not only in the bill number and name, etc.).
good discussion!
Well, from a invasive species standpoint, the entire human population outside north africa would be outlawed by a general bill stating non-indiginouse species with breeding capabalitlies can't exist in so and so habitat. From a political standpoint, such a bill would get you kicked out by the end of the day (so to speak). Besides that fact that massive numbers of people handle and keep non-indiginous species, there would also be the issue of what to do with the pets involved. You can't just kill them, that would probably vbe enough to start riots (there are some dedicated pet owners out there). I agree with dundadundun, what would be needed is a focused, enforcable law with specific requierments before an animal can be banned. Something like "If it can breed in the enviorment to a point of damaging it, all of -insert animal here- must be neutered and cannot be released into the wild." Of course, even that would have issues, not all animals CAN be neutered, and not everyone WILL listen to the law, but it's a start.
Government has always been in the hobby. Back in the early 80's someone caught a piranha in Lake Michigan I believe. First they wanted to ban swimming. Then they thought about draining the lake. Then it was a ban on all fish related to the piranha (think neon tetras). Felt like yelling THEY WON"T MAKE IT PAST WINTER YOU FOOLS! (Actually many people felt like screaming about it back then)Then of course one state (I think it was Kalifornia) wanted pet owners to have a license for all pets. Sounds reasonable. OK so you have 100 tropical fish as pets you need to have a license for. But what about all the live brine shrimp? Yep needed a license for all of them.
I've been looking into aquaculture lately. I've got fish. I've got a huge garden (what Italian doesn't?) Figure I'd combine them and raise tilapia. And of course you need a state permit. Why? (I'll tell you why. So they get $100 from you every year) Can't be because they're afraid of release into the wild. How much more damage could they do then Oscars after all? Government stupidity at work.
I've been looking into aquaculture lately. I've got fish. I've got a huge garden (what Italian doesn't?) Figure I'd combine them and raise tilapia. And of course you need a state permit. Why? (I'll tell you why. So they get $100 from you every year) Can't be because they're afraid of release into the wild. How much more damage could they do then Oscars after all? Government stupidity at work.
