Green Water Killing MegaThread!

[DJDrZ]

Per the advice of coach_z, I am starting the green water killing megathread.

Background: I for months was fighting the GW(green water) problem. I tried everything and was about to give up on the whole tank. Then, almost simultaneously, I put a UV sterilizer in my tank (the aforementioned GKM) and got some awesome advice from Fishybrain. I cut down on my photoperiod, cut back on the wattage, started dosing fertz, and started DIY CO2. The GW problem was gone in < 2 weeks!!! The plants in the tank really took off, including my Madagascar Lace. The tank has been (note the past tense) doing great. My Amazon sword is/was going gangbusters, as are the crypts and Rotala.

About a month ago I transplanted one "box" of biostars to my son's new tank to help with the cycling, as well as two sponges. (I had 2x30ppi and 2x20ppi sponges in the filter, with two boxes of biostars and chemsorb pouch). About the same time the water got cloudy (but not green). I figured this was a bacterial bloom from taking out ~1/2 of the bacteria and I didn't worry about it. However, a week or so later, the water started going green-ish. And has gotten progressively worse.
The CO2 reactors need to be restarted, and I stopped dosing, and have turned out the lights (but not covered the tank).

So, All-Knowing and Wise Planted Aquariums (and shouldn't that be Aquaria?), how can I solve my problem?

 

[dundadundun]

soooo.... to gather the information necessary to assess/address your problem...

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2429488&postcount=1
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2429806&postcount=3

did you take tom's advice on the buffers, r/o? i see you did about the light.


still using these targets?... http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232578

what are you dosing and how?

still using diy co2?

still having problems with it?... http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233914

ever get a drop checker?

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2454504&postcount=4
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2454838&postcount=7

still using aquarium salt for gh?
using dry ferts yet?

did you get the extra angels here?... http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235986

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237120

a planted tank is a planted tank, and must be treated accordingly. "a tank with some plants in it" just doesn't work sometimes. how much of the tank is covered with plants? i'd recommend at least 1/3 of the tank for best results.

also seems you're still having issues with co2...

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237082
trying to cut corners, and figure out your own way to do things, i don't think is helping your chances.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238969
if you want, i'll be happy to ship you a full medium flat rate box of tannin stained water, collected and micron filtered from my terrarium. it would take a lot of bottles of "extract" from what i get out of there from one draining. it will be a month or 2 before i need to drain it and i'd expect you to pay shipping of course. it's a terrarium (plants only) so there's no critters in there to host anything harmful....

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239074
i would have to agree with coach.

you've made a lot of changes and are still learning. most folks take a couple years to figure out a planted tank even with the right instruction... so you're not doing bad.

chances are you had ammo in your tank that sparked or helped spark the g/w. after that, all the changes you've made, diy co2 experiments on a 72 gal, changing ferts, lights, schedules, possibly fish, etc., etc., etc. have all complicated things. inconsistent co2, bba, bga, battling all this can't be helping. if you keep going down this road, your results will stay consistent with what you're having. as you learn things should stable out, but you've been through enough, i think.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239073

waiting till christmas with g/w taking over... idk... i might be inclined to purchase that bulb now and order some dry ferts.... and rub my hands excitedly until x-mas day muttering random words of pressurized carbon joy softly to any unoccupied ear hoping to overwhelm their thoughts of holiday cheer with my face holding a 10# tank and regulator.



what i would do...

use your tap water... or r/o w/seachem equilibrium or a gh booster and baking soda for gh/kh during w/c's (don't match the tank, match your target)
dose dry ferts according to the post by john n in the sticky according to your tank size
get myself a weekly pill planner/organizer and set it up for the week with my doses to make life easy
get my ferts (and gh booster if you use your r/o water) from mg or www.aquariumfertilizer.com (kno3, k2so4, kh2po4 and plantex)
get root ferts from rootmedic or use fertcicles.
do w/c's and re-dose (especially N) any time the substrate is disturbed.
supplement the diy co2 with 1/2 doses excel daily until you go pressurized.
go pressurized asap... at least a 5lb cylinder
adjust my photoperiod as i felt necessary between 6-10 hours daily.
toss the chemsorb pouch
cover some ground in that tank with plants, maybe some floaters until the tank fills in better if you need an economical solution.
don't be afraid to go well beyond your targets you've listed in your prior threads. my po4 stays @ or >4ppm for example... and i don't run co2/high light to need extra, either.
scrap the salt, quick!!!
do a w/c after/during any death/sickness, followed by ferts

and that's just to support the tank healthy after things have been cured by whatever means. i will not claim that g/w will go away without uvc every time. however, once it's gone it should not come back if the tank is maintained with the plants in mind. they need food, and lots of it, and it has to be welled balanced

did you say your apon (madagascar lace aka aponogeton madagascarensis) is suffering now? i wouldn't worry about it, really. it's getting to that season for apons. some stay with you for the winter, while others will die off in the off season and return next year. i'm not sure which one the lace does, personally. a quick search should answer that though.

as an aside, i'm under the impression you might be able to keep all of the plants you have, maybe with the exception of that particular apon without co2 at all... and i think excel alone might just suffice. now, i'm not 100% sure, here...

now there is the blackout... don't go lean on the ferts, though... but it isn't going to work 100% of the time.

there's also a diatom filter... not sure, personally about that one, sounds like a lot of work, so i got a uvc unit during my first green water outbreak. didn't want blankets/trashbags over the furniture in the living room for a week.............

if your outbreak isn't bad, you might not need drastic measures... just treat your plants to a little tlc and a healthy meal... could be tougher than that...

haven't had an outbreak in a tank since (with or without uvc, knock on wood)

i know this is a mess, sorry... had to figure out what's going on as good as i can... made some notes for myself, etc., etc. ... i'm tired and not cleaning it up now ... twas a lot of work it was...

HTH
dun...

 

[DJDrZ]

soooo.... to gather the information necessary to assess/address your problem...

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2429488&postcount=1
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2429806&postcount=3

did you take tom's advice on the buffers, r/o? i see you did about the light.

still using these targets?... http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232578

what are you dosing and how?

still using diy co2?

I am using this PMDD mix. I make up a solution and add ~10ml everyday to my tank.
I am still using DIY CO2 (2x2L reactors). My CO2 never gets green, but the plants have been/are doing great.

still having problems with it?... http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233914

ever get a drop checker?

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2454504&postcount=4
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2454838&postcount=7

I have a drop checker, it doesn't ever get green, but the plants are doing great.

still using aquarium salt for gh?
using dry ferts yet?

did you get the extra angels here?... http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235986

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237120

a planted tank is a planted tank, and must be treated accordingly. "a tank with some plants in it" just doesn't work sometimes. how much of the tank is covered with plants? i'd recommend at least 1/3 of the tank for best results.

Never got the extra angels. As to planting amount, I have one HUGE amazon Sword (~24" high, very wide), the Madagascar Lace, 6 or 7 low lying crypts (no idea what type), some Rotala indica (I think), Ludwigia palustris, H. difformis, and another type of Hygro. There are two Anubias and small patches of moss, but they are all doing well and growing. I would say 10% coverage, so it sounds like too little, but I was planning on the plants growing in, its just not happening that fast...

also seems you're still having issues with co2...

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237082
trying to cut corners, and figure out your own way to do things, i don't think is helping your chances.

Exactly. And that's why I am back, I am thinking Pressurized CO2 would greatly alleviate these problems, if not eliminate.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238969
if you want, i'll be happy to ship you a full medium flat rate box of tannin stained water, collected and micron filtered from my terrarium. it would take a lot of bottles of "extract" from what i get out of there from one draining. it will be a month or 2 before i need to drain it and i'd expect you to pay shipping of course. it's a terrarium (plants only) so there's no critters in there to host anything harmful....

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239074
i would have to agree with coach.

you've made a lot of changes and are still learning. most folks take a couple years to figure out a planted tank even with the right instruction... so you're not doing bad.

chances are you had ammo in your tank that sparked or helped spark the g/w. after that, all the changes you've made, diy co2 experiments on a 72 gal, changing ferts, lights, schedules, possibly fish, etc., etc., etc. have all complicated things. inconsistent co2, bba, bga, battling all this can't be helping. if you keep going down this road, your results will stay consistent with what you're having. as you learn things should stable out, but you've been through enough, i think.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239073

waiting till christmas with g/w taking over... idk... i might be inclined to purchase that bulb now and order some dry ferts.... and rub my hands excitedly until x-mas day muttering random words of pressurized carbon joy softly to any unoccupied ear hoping to overwhelm their thoughts of holiday cheer with my face holding a 10# tank and regulator.

I ordered the bulb and replaced it (its actually the whole unit, not just a bulb. The LED did not come on, so maybe the bulb was OK but the connector isn't or something. But the pump is still working connected to the same transformer doohickey...my wife has said just go ahead and buy your crazy CO2 stuff and call it your present from me... :dance:

what i would do...

use your tap water... or r/o w/seachem equilibrium or a gh booster and baking soda for gh/kh during w/c's (don't match the tank, match your target)
dose dry ferts according to the post by john n in the sticky according to your tank size
get myself a weekly pill planner/organizer and set it up for the week with my doses to make life easy
get my ferts (and gh booster if you use your r/o water) from mg or www.aquariumfertilizer.com (kno3, k2so4, kh2po4 and plantex)

I am there

get root ferts from rootmedic or use fertcicles.
do w/c's and re-dose (especially N) any time the substrate is disturbed.
supplement the diy co2 with 1/2 doses excel daily until you go pressurized.
go pressurized asap... at least a 5lb cylinder
adjust my photoperiod as i felt necessary between 6-10 hours daily.
toss the chemsorb pouch

por quoi? I had one out and then soon after the cloudiness appeared. Its like a safety blanket, is it doing any harm?

cover some ground in that tank with plants, maybe some floaters until the tank fills in better if you need an economical solution.
don't be afraid to go well beyond your targets you've listed in your prior threads. my po4 stays @ or >4ppm for example... and i don't run co2/high light to need extra, either.
scrap the salt, quick!!!
do a w/c after/during any death/sickness, followed by ferts

and that's just to support the tank healthy after things have been cured by whatever means. i will not claim that g/w will go away without uvc every time. however, once it's gone it should not come back if the tank is maintained with the plants in mind. they need food, and lots of it, and it has to be welled balanced

I have been targeting ~10ppm NO3 and been there. I didn't want to go 30ppm without the pressurized CO2. Bad call?

did you say your apon (madagascar lace aka aponogeton madagascarensis) is suffering now? i wouldn't worry about it, really. it's getting to that season for apons. some stay with you for the winter, while others will die off in the off season and return next year. i'm not sure which one the lace does, personally. a quick search should answer that though.

as an aside, i'm under the impression you might be able to keep all of the plants you have, maybe with the exception of that particular apon without co2 at all... and i think excel alone might just suffice. now, i'm not 100% sure, here...

The ML has stopped leafing out, it was putting out a new one about once a week and then growing like mad. I am glad to hear it might be a seasonal thing; its a gorgeous plant that has done really well. As for stuff to plant, low-lying-ish, what would you recommend?

now there is the blackout... don't go lean on the ferts, though... but it isn't going to work 100% of the time.

there's also a diatom filter... not sure, personally about that one, sounds like a lot of work, so i got a uvc unit during my first green water outbreak. didn't want blankets/trashbags over the furniture in the living room for a week.............

if your outbreak isn't bad, you might not need drastic measures... just treat your plants to a little tlc and a healthy meal... could be tougher than that...

haven't had an outbreak in a tank since (with or without uvc, knock on wood)

i know this is a mess, sorry... had to figure out what's going on as good as i can... made some notes for myself, etc., etc. ... i'm tired and not cleaning it up now ... twas a lot of work it was...

HTH
dun...

This has been very helpful. TYVM.

 

[dundadundun]

epsom salts... magnesium sulfate heptahydrate... you might understand/appreciate that, methinks.
kno3... potassium nitrate... greenlight stump remover or spectracide stump remover
phosphates... fleet enema (contains monobasic and dibasic phosphorous)... if you're using that pmdd formula, you probably need phosphates... kh2po4 (potassium phosphate) would do the trick, too
micros... as important as macros.... there's a lot of choices at a pet store... i don't believe, personally in any of them (my opinion/little secret)... plantex csm+b, hands down, imo

that pmdd formula is about three times as expensive per lb as any of it's parts. they're charging you for mixing it... and they sell the other ingredients there. if you get a bag of epsom salts from your local drug store (mgso4 aka magnesium sulfate... long version on package... magnesium sulfate heptahydrate), a pound of kno3 (potassium nitrate) [$4] and a pound of k2so4 (potassium sulfate) [$4]... you'll have enough of each to make 3lbs of that pmdd formula for about the price you paid for 1lb (shipping is the same for up to 4lbs of dry ferts, there if i remember correctly). all you'd have to do is measure out a pound of epsom salts and mix the 3 items together.... IF YOU HAVE THEM SEPARATE, I WOULD KEEP THEM SEPARATE, THOUGH SO YOU CAN ISOLATE ONE INGREDIENT AT A TIME AND GET A FEEL FOR YOUR DOSING ONCE YOU'VE GOT A LEG UP ON THINGS.

i dunno much about chemsorb... but it's not necessary.
from a quick search i see it removes/binds/whatever heavy metals... a couple of your nutrients that are necessary are trace metals... and i don't see you adding any traces... based on that, i'd say, heck yeah, it could be a problem... dunno the specifics, though, so can't say for sure.

definitely up your nitrates... might not need 30 yet, but i try to use 10 as a minimum without ANY type of carbon above atmospheric... i'd think with carbon, 10 doesn't give you much of a buffer from tragedy/algae farm/etc.







so, to recap... (shorthand if you may)...
pressurized
green d/ch'er with 4dkh
drop the chemsorb and add quilt batting/sponge/nothing/etc.
target closer to 30ppm nitrates
target 5+ ppm phosphates (you can get fleet enema at any drug section/store)
micros!!!
drop the salt
more plant coverage... get a floater from someone in the marketplace here for now (stay far away from riccia or duckweed for now, too. they are a real pain to keep up after and spread throughout the tank like germs... you don't need that frustration quite yet.)

eradicate your g/w issue by whatever means you feel necessary and focus on keeping your tank clean and healthy and growing some plants. if you think of it more like gardening, that might help. if you use uvc to fix the water, i would turn it off and save it once the water's clear. this will do 2 things; let you know if you're still doing something wrong... and save some bulb life in the meantime... i still think the uvc gunner posted is a good deal, too... a couple members use and like them too, which helps.

as far as smaller/foreground plants what properties are you looking for? carpet? accents? i would start another thread for that, really. i think your substrate might have to be taken into account for carpeting plants... you did mention something similar to pea gravel, correct? anyway... the most complete info you can give when you start that thread, the better.

 

[coach_z]

Holy long thread!!! and it is only 4 posts so far!!!!!!!

Um, i have not been able to find your water parameters:
Nitrate
nitrite
ammonia
ph
co2
phosphate
gh/kh
etc
etc

remember that limiting your ferts will only allow your algae to take hold, dose dose dose and see what happens. make sure your fish are getting enough oxygen, an air stone might help if you don't have enough surface agitation.

7 day blackout might be the best option for you. Run an air stone during that time. Do not take little peaks as it lets light in and basically causes you to simply waste your time. Concerned about your plants? Remove them and put them in fresh water with a bucket and lights above it. Do a HUGE water change after the period if everything appears to be clearing up.

 

[plantbrain]

UV, even a cheapy off ebay etc will work, 3 days later, you have no Gw and no issues further/likely again from then on..........but.......other algae issues may come home to roost.

So focus on plants and what they need and do not assume your parameter are/where good and all if you have algae.

You can sell the UV later also to re coup the cost.

Regards,
Tom Barr
.

 

[DJDrZ]

Holy long thread!!! and it is only 4 posts so far!!!!!!!
Um, i have not been able to find your water parameters:
Nitrate
nitrite
ammonia
ph
co2
phosphate
gh/kh
etc
etc

NO3 ~10ppm (maybe less)
NO2, NH3 = = zero
pH 7.4-7.6
CO2 not green
Phosphate ~3ppm
GH/KH 6/10ish
That's all I test for, what am I missing?

remember that limiting your ferts will only allow your algae to take hold, dose dose dose and see what happens. make sure your fish are getting enough oxygen, an air stone might help if you don't have enough surface agitation.

7 day blackout might be the best option for you. Run an air stone during that time. Do not take little peaks as it lets light in and basically causes you to simply waste your time. Concerned about your plants? Remove them and put them in fresh water with a bucket and lights above it. Do a HUGE water change after the period if everything appears to be clearing up.

OK, started re-dosing fertz (@dun:and it does have micros CSM+B). To just start out I wanted to do something easy, if the fertz end up being a long term solution, and I think they will, then I will go the bulk route.

So, is there concurrence on going pressurized also?

 

[DJDrZ]

UV, even a cheapy off ebay etc will work, 3 days later, you have no Gw and no issues further/likely again from then on..........but.......other algae issues may come home to roost.

So focus on plants and what they need and do not assume your parameter are/where good and all if you have algae.

You can sell the UV later also to re coup the cost.

Regards,
Tom Barr
.

This is my second outbreak of GW, so that first point is either wrong or I am misreading it. As for other algae, I have seen minor patches of cyanobacteria (adjusting the water flow helped with that) and some BBA (I think), changing the CO2 reactor seemed to stop that, and teh Otos are cleaning it up, albeit slowly.

 

[dundadundun]

:scratches head: i thought something was fishy about that pmdd mix... :wall:
i see the plantex now. must have been distracted by wee ones....

 

[plantbrain]

This is my second outbreak of GW, so that first point is either wrong or I am misreading it. As for other algae, I have seen minor patches of cyanobacteria (adjusting the water flow helped with that) and some BBA (I think), changing the CO2 reactor seemed to stop that, and teh Otos are cleaning it up, albeit slowly.

Few have it 2x
If so, you have several issues occurring.
Lack of nutrients is one, lack of CO2 is another and ..........

And I do not see any info on lighting, but......I bet it's high as well.

Low light + good CO2, plenty of nutrients.........
Then such things like algae are much more minor.
Then you spend more time gardening, which likely was the original goal.

I'm by far not the only person that has long suggested this.

Regards,
Tom Barr