Hair algae (I need help!)

[andrew h]

heres the current parameters and schedule:
Parameters:
PH: average 6.8 morning 6.6 durning the day
No3: 40 ppm
No2: 0
Gh:150 ppm
Kh: 90ppm
Po4: 2.5 - 3.0 ppm
temp: average 79-80 deg F

Plantex mixed (1 tbsp suspended in 125 ml H20)
Dosing Sschedule:
Day 1: 50% water change, 45 ml plantex + iron solution, 2.75 tsp K2so4
Day 2: 14 ml micros (kent botannic)
Day 3: 1.75 tsp K2so4, 1 capful flourish Fe
Day 4: 22.5 ml plantex + iron solution
Day 5: 14 ml micros (kent botannic), 1.75 tsp K2so4
Day 6: 1 capful flourish Fe
Day 7: 22.5 Ml plantex + iron solution (day 7 is sort of redundant but it keeps me on a 7 day schedule)

 

[happychem]

I think that you're adding a lot of trace elements! Plantex CSM+B + Fe is traces, or micros, on top of that you're also adding the occasional dose of flourish Fe. I don't think that you're necessarily overdosing, it's tough to say, but you're certainly adding a lot.

It's probably worth scaling back, if only because traces are expensive. Just alternate K2SO4 and traces and you should be golden.

 

[andrew h]

Yeh, I wasn't sure if the plantex had micros, so I just kept adding them.
I don't need to add Mg, or calcium as my Kh and GH are Ok?

The interesting thing is that the plants were not pearling before I changed to this new regiment, as I just got the Plantex last week? any ideas?

 

[happychem]

As Tom Barr said, an issue of CO2. Your morning CO2 is a bit low, is it possible to set up your system so that it maintains a pH of 6.6 instead of slowly decreasing by increasing CO2 levels through the day? Or alternatively, start with a pH of 6.6 and finish the day at 6.8. That way the plants start the day primed with plenty of CO2, instead of fighting for it in the morning and finally having an abundance just before lights off, when they no longer need it.

 

[andrew h]

The real problem is the fish, they are obviously stressed when the PH drops to 6.6 (fast breathing). My mollies are my "canaries in the mine" as they are the first at the top of the tank when the C02 reaches dangerous levels. By this time the rest of the fish are swimming mid tank, even the placos.

The other problem is this, after Tom posted his message I let the Co2 drop in a controlled situation to 6.2 and the plants did not pearl. Although it just about killed my fish? I started the experiment with the PH at 6.6 in the morning and had it down to 6.2, 4 hours later. No pearling, it is kind of confusing. It would seem that everything is just about right?

I am obviously missing something but what?

The other thing I noticed is that the Hygros have leaves where the tissue areas between the nerves are transparent (not missing)? It is only occurring on the hygros and only towards the top on the newest growth.

On a better note there is no trace of the hair algae left, the fish wiped it out completely when it started dying off.

 

[plantbrain]

I am really perplexed, I allowed the PH to fall to 6.2 to see if the elevated Co2 levels would trigger the plants pearling, (as they have not in some time now) and it had no effect. Even with Co2 at levels dangerous for the fish, the plants would not pearl. My Kh levels dropped a little from 120 ppm to 80 ppm as I covered over some of the crushed coral while vacuuming the tank.

Is it possible that there is too much of a nutrient, which might have negative effects? If so which might it be?

The plants are growing but they do not have really good color?

Well then if your KH fell, you can bet there 's some HCO3 removed as a carbon source by the plants, sounds like a CO2 limited tank.

That's two different things pointing that way.

Yea, yea, I know about the pH and the test, do you use a pH meter or a liquid test kit that's good and accurate?

You have high NO3/PO4 yet these should fall to at least 1/2 this amount in a week if the CO2 is good.

Everything is pointing to CO2 CO2 and CO2.

If you use a pH meter, try turning off all the lectrical devices and see the difference after yoyu calibrate the pH probe.
Recheck the pH test kit againt a standard if liquid.

I'd rely more on the eyes and the plants and the fish than the test kit.

Now about those fish and the supposed CO2 levels.
The issue is low O2, not enough plant growth, other wise they can handle a fair amount CO2 as long as the O2 is also high from plant growth which they only release during the day.

Add CO2 only during the day, there is not reason to add it at night, plants do not use it then.

Make sure you have a decent water surface movement.
Not a torrent, but some decent movement, you can always add more CO2, that's easy, but this will help add O2 if it gets low and the CO2 high and should solve the fish issue when you add more CO2 and turn it off at night.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[andrew h]

Thanks Tom,
I was actually going mostly by the fish, I kept lowering the PH controller until the fish started reacting badly (the whole test lasted about 5 hours as I did not want shock the fish by dropping the PH to rapidly)? I did recalibrate the PH probe last weekend. But I will try lowering it with more surface turbulence and see if that yields any results.
The strange part is that the plants seem to being growing nicely (although I suspect probably not well as in optimal conditions).

 

[plantbrain]

Okay, now I know what you should do:
Use the pH controller only during the day.
Measure the pH with the lights off and other electric off.
Then measure it on.
Is there a difference?

I bet there is.

Add more surface movement.
If you don't have any, dd some.

Then go back and see if you have any issues, you shouldn't.

This is not a nutrient issue, it's a CO2 issue.

Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com

 

[andrew h]

Well it would seem you are correct Tom, I am sure you're tired of hearing it but here's how it went- I started by increasing the surface turbulance, then I kept lowering the PH controller ignoring the numbers and watching the reaction through the course of the day, I opened the valve some on the Co2 to increase the flow. The plants finally started pearling late this afternoon, It is not the most pearling I have ever seen but it is significantly more than in the last few weeks. The fish seemed OK probably because of the increased surface movement?
I am going to isolate the Ph controller electrically from all the other equipment and see if that makes a difference. Before I do that I am going to do a chemical PH test to see if there is any discrepancy.

Good Call Tom!
Between Happychem and your help I might finally have this thing licked.

 

[andrew h]

A question:
Are oxygen and Co2 levels inversly proportional? I used to think that they were but as of late I am begining to see that they are not? Is it possible to have certain levels of oxygen in the presence of elevated Co2? I would think the very thing that cause oxygenation would displace the Co2 - but in a condition where the Co2 is being replaced faster than displaced an equilibrium could be achieved? Is there any substance to this idea or is this nonsensical rambling?
I just want to undersand the principle at work here. (if possible)