Help! New tank, new fish, pH probs

Yay! yet another question! hehe...

Okay so... I've tried feeding the three guys several times over the past three days, and they just ignore the food. One appeared to take a small nibble of one of the flakes (Nutrafin Maxx), but otherwise they seem to have no interest whatsoever in the food. The flakes are about half the size of their bodies, but I'm figuring that that wouldn't make any difference. Of course, I clean out all the un-eaten food after a couple minutes, so I know that they're not snacking behind my back :-)

Any suggestions?
 
Grind the food between your fingers so it is in tiny particles. Some fish anly try to eat the small stuff. Other don't care and will attack a big flake and tear off pieces. I'd take one flake, grind it and drop it in. give them about 5 minutes with you watching from a distance (sometimes new fish are scared of new owners) and see how they do.
Dave
 
I am new to this forum but not to the hobby. Most of what you have heard thus far you should trust- from what I have read of Dave's stuff he knows what he is talking about. I would like to hit a few things here in addition though.

First- before you do ANYTHING else, slow down. Your reactions may be too quick and uninformed right now, and a fish tank is kind of like an experiment, especially for someone new to this. We all know, we have been there too, checking water parameters 4-5 times a day, wondering about this, worrying about that... and if you "try" to many things, you can be disrupting that experiment daily, which makes setting a "base" (known set of factors) hard to establish.

Real quickly, pH down- not good. Creates desired effect short term, but does not solve the problem long term, so you will have pH swings due to buffer issues. This is the kind of chemistry that even I don't like to dabble in, so let me just say that for the newbie, pH adjustment and the explanations behind it are mind numbing. pH down also in most cases adds phosphates.
So- how do you address this?
First, test your well water for everything- GH, KH, ammonia, chlorine, phosphates, nitrates, etc... granted, being a well, many of those things should NOT be there, but test em anyway. This will tell you what your base starting point is with your water. I am going to guess it will be alkaline and a little hard.
Second- determine if you want to either keep fish that will like the kind of water you have naturally from the well (cichlids, for example)- OR, if you want to do something to change it that will WORK (DI, RO filters).

I would recommend Aquarium Pharmaceuticals "Tap Water Purifier"... basically, it is a DI unit. About $25-$30 online. Will make your water fine for Characins/Tetras, if you want such fish. I use one religiously. Follow the instructions, filter the water SLOW.

So- drop the pH down, and either adjust your ideas on what fish to keep or use a "real" solution to change the water hardness and pH to levels you desire. If you continue to use pH down and try to keep low pH fish, you are going to wind up hating the results.

Other quick points:

1. IMO- that pH (8.0 and up) is NOT good for Glowlighs, or other Tetras.

2. What are you using for substrate? This could be causing the high pH (although I doubt it)... stranger things have happened though...

3. Fish wil generally adjust to pH ranges outside of what they prefer, as Dave said. However, they REALLY do not like big changes that "shock" them. On a cellular level, this can effect them profoundly- gill functions, etc... So, you really should be careful bringing fish home from the store- find out what their pH is, and if it is more than say .5 off from yours, I would do some more extensive acclimatization. I suspect this is the cause of your fish sitting in the corner and not eating.

4. Temp is fine. Do you have anything in the tank for them to swim around, give them the impression they have some "cover" if they need it?

5. Food- you could try some frozen brine shrimp. Shave a very small amount/chunk off, and toss it in... not too much. They might smell that and like the look of it as it sinks more than the floating flakes.

Being new to this is fun and stressful at the same time. Do yourself a favor and get some good books on the "hobby". All of the Baensch Aquarium Atlas books are great. Spendy, but very extensive. They will really open up your world of knowledge on this, and you will quickly have tools to make these tough decisions seem easier.

And of course, people on here and other site like the Krib are great sources for info. Just be sure to get a broad opinion base on serious issues, and not just take the word of one or two posts because you are worried about your fish.

Good luck!
 
TetraBotia said:
Real quickly, pH down- not good. Creates desired effect short term, but does not solve the problem long term, so you will have pH swings due to buffer issues. This is the kind of chemistry that even I don't like to dabble in, so let me just say that for the newbie, pH adjustment and the explanations behind it are mind numbing. pH down also in most cases adds phosphates.

To tell you the truth, before I got the pH down stuff I was pretty reluctant to get it, knowing of some of the possible 'side effects.' But hey, having a pH of about 8.8, I knew that I couldn't keep any fish in it, so I decided to go for it. Why didn't I post anything on this site about it? I have no idea.

TetraBotia said:
So- how do you address this?
First, test your well water for everything- GH, KH, ammonia, chlorine, phosphates, nitrates, etc... granted, being a well, many of those things should NOT be there, but test em anyway. This will tell you what your base starting point is with your water. I am going to guess it will be alkaline and a little hard.

ooo sounds like fun... spend lots of money on test kits that can be used a million times yet I'll only use them once! hehe - I purchased a 'freshwater master test kit' about a week or two after I had set up the tank, but that only included pH, ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite tests. You think that I should definitely purchase GH, KH and chlorine test kits? I do use Aqua Plus to remove the chlorine from the water, however, so there shouldn't be any chlorine in there.


TetraBotia said:
Other quick points:

1. IMO- that pH (8.0 and up) is NOT good for Glowlighs, or other Tetras.

2. What are you using for substrate? This could be causing the high pH (although I doubt it)... stranger things have happened though...

5. Food- you could try some frozen brine shrimp. Shave a very small amount/chunk off, and toss it in... not too much. They might smell that and like the look of it as it sinks more than the floating flakes.

1. I know. That's why I bought pH Down.

2. All I have at the bottom is Estes' Spectrastone Gravel. Pretty generic stuff. And on this topic, I should mention that when I first tested the pH and found it at such a high level, I was wondering if there were any objects of sorts which I could put in to naturally lower the pH. Now that I have the chance, do you know of any? I have heard that putting some sort of bogwood or driftwood in lowers the pH. Is this true?

5. Alright, I'll try that as soon as I can get my hands on some.
 
All I have at the bottom is Estes' Spectrastone Gravel. Pretty generic stuff. And on this topic, I should mention that when I first tested the pH and found it at such a high level, I was wondering if there were any objects of sorts which I could put in to naturally lower the pH. Now that I have the chance, do you know of any? I have heard that putting some sort of bogwood or driftwood in lowers the pH. Is this true?
Bogwood and driftwood genrally only have a short term effect. once the tannins leach out, the effect goes away. Peat added to the filter will work long term as you can replenish it as needed to get the natural softening effect.

With that being said, you water is quite hard and the effect of tannins from peat and driftwood will be largely unnoticeable. The better the buffer level in the tank the less effect you will see from peat and driftwood. Given your starting point, it would seem to me to not be worht the trouble (I have played this game with water like yours. It is not a fun game by any stretch)

Dillution with RO or DI water is the best route if you wish to change things at all.
I fully agree that you should get a KH and GH test kits As soon as feasable. PH largely does not matter in the real picture.
Kh and GH do matter and it is good to know what they are. Your tetras may be just fine in the water you have, so I'd proceede carefully and take your time. The total dissolved solids levels are the concern for soft water fish. Outside of breeding they are not a large concern if the fish is acclimated well to the water. After having played the game for years with just about any Ph adjusting method known, I would work to acclimate fish to my tap water long before trying to change my tap to match some natural condition.

When i say your water is borderline for tetra's, it is way up the scale on PH, which tends to normally indicate high hardness levels. Without GH and Kh numbers or a TDS (total dissolved solids) reading it is difficult to know for sure.
If you acclimate your fish to what you have you won't need to play the adjustment game forever.
dave
 
heres my advice...

you are only talking about a ten gallon tank right? probably 8.5 gallons of water, max.

buy two of 5gallon water containers... available next the the culligan stand or whatever at most north american grocery stores. its a small initial investment, but water out of those refill islands is pure water pH 7 KH, GH 0, ten gallons.. 5.00 max (i eat that much cheese in a month, hehe)

mix in a half gallon or so of your tap water for a little bit of those minerals to help stabilize any pH swings that might happen with RO water due to no buffering capacity (KH). a KH of 5 degrees (forget the PPM conversion) is ideal, but any reading at all will probably do.

if you fill your new jugs once a month on a grocery trip, youre set

and if you ocassionally toss a little of your tap in to top it off, like in the winter months, no big deal, as long as you use the Reverse Ossmosis water to do your changes.

this system worked for me for a couple of years on a ten gallon.

:cool:
 
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Sounds good - I'll definitely try that. But, since the water that they're in now is so alkaline, I should probably just start off with about 10% water changes so that my tetras don't experience shock - right?

Also, I just tested the water for everything that I have the capibilities to do, and my pH is at 8.0, ammonia is 0.10 ppm, and nitrate and nitrite are are 0.0 ppm.
 
Alright, one more question. Regarding water changes... I was planning on using a siphon, but as it's only a 10 gallon tank, my dad suggested that I just use a turkey baster. I'm planning on doing around a 10% water change weekly, at least for now. So what would you recommend - siphon or baster?
 
danas90 said:
Alright, one more question. Regarding water changes... I was planning on using a siphon, but as it's only a 10 gallon tank, my dad suggested that I just use a turkey baster. I'm planning on doing around a 10% water change weekly, at least for now. So what would you recommend - siphon or baster?

Have your Dad do the baster for a couple of changes... you will then have a siphon.

And if you wish, you can tell him this suggestion comes from a 40 year old father of two.
 
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