HELP! Now I've lost a ram!

mishi8

mishi8

Go fly a kite!
Jan 13, 2005
768
0
16
Alberta
I've lost another fish in my battle with ich. The german blue ram with the worst ich outbreak died sometime between 2pm and 5pm today. When I left, she was swimming, but not eating, was absolutely covered in ich and was showing signs of what I think is fin rot. (Her body now is showing no signs of ich...does ich drop off as soon as a fish dies?)

Now one of my platies who has had a bad outbreak and also showing signs of fin rot has a red streak on the right side of her back, in line with her right pectoral fin. Her gills are looking brigter red than usual as well. My other platy is shimmying a bit, but now longer seems to have any ich cysts nor any signs of fin rot.

My remaining ram has some ich cysts, but I'm seeing no signs of fin rot, is swimming well and eating well.

I've been treating for ich since January 22nd. ~1 teaspoon salt per gallon, plus temp of 84 degrees (highest my "dual temp" heater will go). Yesterday I added some Melafix to treat the "fin rot."

Current parameters of my 20 gal:
8.2 pH (has gone up :( )
0 NH3
0 NO2
5-10 NO3

What else should I do? Is this a really bad case of ich with a secondary infection of fin rot? Or am I looking at something else entirely?

The fin damage seems to have come on pretty suddenly, and I'm seeing it in my platy in my 10 gal as well (also being treated for ich), plus the cory I lost form that tank seemed to have some fin damage as well as a slight red streak on his side. Should I be treating this in a different manner? Could it be something even more serious?
 
my easy answer is to bag the salt and treat the ich with meds. You are 12 days into a treatment regime and are still losing fish to the disease utilizing the conservative approach to ich treatmetn.

what other type of fish do you have? how many? how big is this tank?

In addition to moving to something like Ich Guard or Rid Ich.....I would change water each day prior to dosing meds. The water changes should be concurrent with a thorough gravel vac. You will be removing the parasite from the water column and the substrate this way.

Depending upon the age (size of) of the fish I would turn the heat back to the 80ºF range, You will be dealing with a two to three day life cycle with ample opportunity to catch the ich at the susceptible (free swimming) stage as long as you keep the meds up to recommended dose.

(i have kept and bred rams for the past 4 years--they will easily tolerate meds. Even those with malachite green)

Melfix against an aggressive bacterial issue causing fin rot is sort of like shooting an elephant with a sling shot given the alternatives available. I was looking at the newly arrived fish at the lfs today and noticed Melafix on one of the displays. I think its strongest clai was that it helped to "promote" healing. Not "use it in the event of serious problems".

The "natural" or homeaopathic treatments were a great approach in the 60's and 70's. It was virtually all we had available. As medicine has made great advances in disease treatment for people the consequence for the world of fish has been nothing but positive--if used properly. not indiscriminantly.

The gill redness is most likely a direct result of damage caused by ich. The redness on the body is most likely a secondary bacterial infection as a result of wounds created by the ich parasites. Scrupulous attention to serial (daily) water changes may be all that is required (over the years the easiest cure for bacterial issues has seemingly been water change, water change water change). If it is an ulceration then it would most likely be a bacterial issue to be treated with a broad spectrum antibiotic.

I know i go against the preference of some of the people on this board when i suggest meds as opposed to salt. They just seem to have worked more effectively and efficiently for me over the years. And, given that the problem is still creating fish death 12 days later it may be time to simply take a few days and knock it out.

as a footnote on the topic of ich treatment and meds I also think about a link I have posted here and on other sites as an excellent place to gather a quick understanding of various diseases and some of the treatments regimes available. www.fishpalace.org/disease.htm . And, i think of the treatments suggested. Then i think of pandora as a practioner of the medical sciences for people. It always makes me think she just may have be on to something when she recommends using the same science for use to treat fish.
 
Last edited:
Some ick becomes resistant to med treatments...if the meds don't work, try this.........

I would put your fish in a smaller tank and do water changes every day....possibly twice a day. (you can be treating thier home tank with a serious dose of ick remedy while they're quarenteening in the smaller tanks) I wouldn't worry about how many fish you have in there as you will be doing water changes every day....have nothing in the tank BTW...no gravel or decorations....completely empty except for what you use to keep the water circulating and airated.

Changing the water religiously and often will help to remove any free swimming ick in the water...hopefully before it attaches to your fish. If you have two small tanks set up, you could switch the fish from tank to tank and do a complete wipedown and scrub on the tank you remove them from and get it all setup for the next days change (if you use two tanks, once a day should do)

Dip the fish in a bucket of clean warm water before you add them to the clean tank, to rinse off anything that may be clinging to them but not yet quite attached.

It's alot of work, but if done properly and well it can help to get rid of ick that may be resistant to other remedies. It could take as little as a week to clear them up, depending on the temp and how diligent you are to do the changes and tank cleanings.

Alot of work, but worth trying if nothing else has worked.


I don't know how true this is, but I have read that if ick has nothing to attach itself to after 3 days....it dies. So removing the fish from thier home tank and increasing the temps in it for over a week, may be enough to get rid of it in there...though I would do a serious gravel vac and cleaning before putting them back...and possibly a good dose of ick rememdy just to be on the safe side. Might want to check up on that info about ick dieing after 3 days though, not sure about that....
 
Last edited:
I agree with Sully. If the salt isn't working and you are losing fish, it's time to take another tack. I would look for one of the ich meds that is a formalin/malachite green combo. Water changes (and gravel vacuuming, to remove ich cysts from the gravel) each day before treating is also a good idea and will help minimize re-infestation and speed recovery.

Also, it is an often overlooked fact that ich reaches its quickest life cycle speed at about 74°F, and temperature increases past that don't really have an effect until you get up to about 94°F, where the temperature alone can be fatal to the ich (unfortunately, also to most fish). Thus the 84°F temp in your tank really isn't necessary, and may be stressing your fish (the problems with your fishes fins may, in fact, be a result of the higher temperature increasing their susceptibility through stress).

When treating with meds, remove carbon from your filter. Also, be very careful with any medicine containing malachite green, especially if you or anyone else in your house are pregnant.
 
Wow! Thank you for the thorough and thoughtful replies!

My approach with medicating is the same for people as it is for fish. Natural methods are preferable, and meds are used only when those natural methods aren't helping. I'm not a big believer in allopathic medicine being the answer, and in some cases it can do more harm than good. ;) That said, I started with the safest methods of treatment first. I'm still not convinced that continuing with salt and heat isn't the best way to go, since I've read accounts where it's taken more than 21 days for the ich to be cured. In addition, both of my tanks (20 gal and 10 gal) have zebra snails, plus my 20 gal also has amano shrimp and my 10 gal has cories. So I don't want to add any meds that may be more harmful to some fish more than others.

I used Melafix, because I have it here. I am not convinced that it does much, but since I had it, I thought I'd give it a shot. I also have some metronidazole that I could use if it would be helpful in this case. I tried to buy some Ich meds yesterday, but I did not find what I was looking for at the store. Unfortunately, I've also got sicks kids at home right now, and cannot go driving all over the city to find fish meds right now.

The sickest platy definitely looks like she has more than ich. Her body looks as though it's completely covered in ich, her fins are looking ragged, seems to be covered in kind of a fuzzy film all over, and has a red streak on her back. The other platy doesn't show any signs of illness other than shimmying now. The remaining ram has a few ich cysts.

In my 10 gallon, my male platy has a few spots of ich and signs of ragged fins. The cories in that tank seem to be holding their own, but aren't completely thrilled with the salt.

Both of my tanks need to continue with ich treatment. I don't have another tank to set up as a hospital, so I'm considereing moving fish around for better treatment. In order to properly treat this secondary infection, I'm thinking I could move the ich ridden platy into the 10 gal with my other sick platy and give them medicinal treatment to combat both ich and fungus. My 10 gal has a heater with unlimited temperature settings, so I can set it as needed. I'll pick up medicine that will be helpful for both ich and fungus.

With the 20 gal, I'll keep trying the salt and heat method. The remaining fish don't have signs of heavy infestation or secondary infection, so I would be fine with staying the course for a few more days, plus doing daily gravel vacs and water changes. The heater I have on this tank is a Marineland Dual Temp. It's very accurate in it's settings, but it only has two: 76 degrees and 84 degrees. It's a really dumb design and I'm frustrated with it's limitations (it came with the tank kit). Means I can't pick a temp in between, and can't go higher to completely wipe out ich with temp. Yes, I should probably get a new heater, but it's not going to happen in the next couple of days. (I should also get a new HOB filter, because this Penguin Biowheel is so noisy it drives me nuts. :) )

Does this sounds reasonable as my next step?
 
kveeti said:
Daveedka's article on ich says 2-3 tsp per gallon. Perhaps double your salt level?
Click to expand...

I checked his article again, and it says 1-3 tsp per gallon. I have a bit more than 1 teaspoon at this point. The fish didn't seem thrilled with more than that so I backed off. I certainly can try adding more.

Do you think it's okay to move the fish into the different tanks, though? If the sickest of the platies are in the 10 gal, then I can concentrate combatting their secondary illnesses without affecting the fish in the 20 gal. Of course, it means moving the cories into the 20 gal and so I can't put too much salt in with them.
 
Basically, you need to treat the tank too, and the stress of moving the fish will not help the situation. The corys will tolerate the salt for a few weeks. I would consider upping the amount of salt, water changes, and vacuuming and keep it up for another week or two. rid-ich does work pretty well IMO, I've used it in the past, but I think it says to use half strength with tetras, corys, etc. which seems to be counterproductive, and it can dye your seals on your tank which I don't like.
 
Holly9937 said:
Basically, you need to treat the tank too, and the stress of moving the fish will not help the situation. The corys will tolerate the salt for a few weeks. I would consider upping the amount of salt, water changes, and vacuuming and keep it up for another week or two. rid-ich does work pretty well IMO, I've used it in the past, but I think it says to use half strength with tetras, corys, etc. which seems to be counterproductive, and it can dye your seals on your tank which I don't like.
Click to expand...


Will it be enough I keep the fish where they are, increase the salt, and step up the gravel vacs and water changes? Should I add meds too? And what about my shrimp and snails? Do I need to move them out if I start meds? Because I've got cories as well, I'm limited to the type/amount of meds I can use.

I'm trying to figure out the best way to sort out my fish to give them the most effective treatment for the illnesses they have. If I had a dedicated hospital tank, then I would be moving my sick fish over there anyway. Is there any value in moving fish to make my 10 gal a hospital tank for my sickest fish?

I'm so frustrated by this whole ich thing. I've never had ich in my tanks before, and really wish I had quarantined from the beginning. Now I'm thinking in circles trying to figure it out. This sucks. :mad:
 
since the shrimp and snails would be ok for a couple of weeks with no filter and water changes I would take them out just to be safe, but you might not have to, not sure on that. You could definately try meds., but I wouldn't do both at the same time, that might be worse for them, medicating is pretty stressful for the fish, which is why the salt is usually the best first course of action. I would up the salt, water changes, etc. for a few days-week and see if there is any improvement. JMHO
Sorry to hear about all the trouble, hope your luck turns around :o
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
AquariaCentral.com
Top Bottom