Help! One of my fish is THROWING UP!
- Thread starter volkl23
- Start date
Thanks for the reply. I've been set up since early February. My ammonia has been 0 for quite some time.
In the other thread, people have said that because I am doing SO many water changes and since I have heavy chloramines that there is too much for the nitrite bacteria to handle once it gets converted from ammonia to nitrite. I'm basically introducing 100% (20G) of .50 PPM ammonia every single day, which is a lot of nitrite produced as a result. Do you think this may be a cause for concern? It does make sense.
Heavy WCs and a lot of them will certainly 'slow' down the process by reducing availabale ammonia, but it will in no way affect your bacteria (directly).
However, your fish and decaying food/poop i the tnka should more than make up for the water changes IMO - especially with a lot of fish.
Lastly, you mentioned that you are starting to see nitrAtes now. Thus, the cycle is working. Granted a bit slower than I would have expected but nonetheless it is present and the bacterial processing of nirtItes into nitrAtes is occuring.
If using PRIME in your WCs the chlormines are nuetralized "instantly" Yes I think it PRIME neutralizes ammonia too, but not all and only one type (as I understand - please correct me if I'm wrong here). Other de-chlorinators only treat for the chlorine-toxins (i.e. Stress Coat is one example) and for this situation would be aFAR better solution.
I understand what they are saying, and yes you are seemingly doing too many WCs (I suspect the high readings are form your tap water or testing methods), but there is a lot of ammonia being generated w/ ur fish and decaying matter. Yes, this could very well account for your slow cycling imo.
However, I applaud you for your due diligance and well intensions of placing the fish's safety first (re: heavey WCs). Kepeing Ammonia/nitrItes under 0.25 is just simply humane imo. If they are not going down - again check the testing eq/ or methods and check your tap. If in doubt have your LFS test a sample for you as well. Getting the readings is tough, and is not easy at first...
Sorry for the essay! I'm just trrying to help, and I'm reaching a bit so trying to cover the bases
However, your fish and decaying food/poop i the tnka should more than make up for the water changes IMO - especially with a lot of fish.
Lastly, you mentioned that you are starting to see nitrAtes now. Thus, the cycle is working. Granted a bit slower than I would have expected but nonetheless it is present and the bacterial processing of nirtItes into nitrAtes is occuring.
If using PRIME in your WCs the chlormines are nuetralized "instantly" Yes I think it PRIME neutralizes ammonia too, but not all and only one type (as I understand - please correct me if I'm wrong here). Other de-chlorinators only treat for the chlorine-toxins (i.e. Stress Coat is one example) and for this situation would be aFAR better solution.
I understand what they are saying, and yes you are seemingly doing too many WCs (I suspect the high readings are form your tap water or testing methods), but there is a lot of ammonia being generated w/ ur fish and decaying matter. Yes, this could very well account for your slow cycling imo.
However, I applaud you for your due diligance and well intensions of placing the fish's safety first (re: heavey WCs). Kepeing Ammonia/nitrItes under 0.25 is just simply humane imo. If they are not going down - again check the testing eq/ or methods and check your tap. If in doubt have your LFS test a sample for you as well. Getting the readings is tough, and is not easy at first...
Sorry for the essay! I'm just trrying to help, and I'm reaching a bit so trying to cover the bases
The weird thing is that I've detected nitrATES for about a month now! As I understand it, Prime converts it to NH4+ (non-toxic), but the bacteria still readily gobbles it up and converts it to Nitrite.
My tap reads .5-.60 ammonia and 0 for everything else. I don't think my testing procedures are faulty, although I will shake the nitrite bottles next time (it doesn't say to do so in the manual, but it won't hurt).
So do you think I still should do 50%PWC x2 a day or should I lower it since you believe I change too much WCs too. I was only doing so many WC to make the nitrite to .25
The weird thing is that I've detected nitrATES for about a month now! As I understand it, Prime converts it to NH4+ (non-toxic), but the bacteria still readily gobbles it up and converts it to Nitrite.
My tap reads .5-.60 ammonia and 0 for everything else. I don't think my testing procedures are faulty, although I will shake the nitrite bottles next time (it doesn't say to do so in the manual, but it won't hurt).
So do you think I still should do 50%PWC x2 a day or should I lower it since you believe I change too much WCs too. I was only doing so many WC to make the nitrite to .25
If your tap has high ammonia, yes you need Prime. Treat your water with Prime (as usual) and test it again after 20 minutes. You don't want to overdose (follow the directions, not double) or the situation descriobed by others may occur.
As for the conversion from bacteria, the process is Ammonia -> nitrItes -> nitrAtes (not Ates into Ites). NitrAtes is the final stage of the compounds that can only be reduced via removal (i.e. WC, plants or chemical)
As for WCs I would LOVE to say use your test readings as a guide. Over 0.25 yes, under leave alone, but something is going on here. Again, triple check your kit for an expiration date (stamped), sampling, etc., and have the LFS do a test for you for verification (it's free, or should be).
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People fuss so much about the nitrite levels in an aquarium, but cycling involves a temporary spike in nitrites. Yes, nitrites are hazardous to fish... this is part of why illness, stress, and losses. This is a well-established truth to the fish-keeping hobby. But the debate as to whether or not to do water changes, I would think, is an easy one. Don't.
My reasoning? Think of your filter as a tiny ecosystem. There is food and those who must eat said food and then there is the waste they create. Ammonia is the food initially. A set of bacteria consume this ammonia as a source of energy and convert it to nitrites. But the nitrites are food to a second set of bacteria who consume it for energy and produce nitrates as waste.
So... we have a bare tank that has just had water poured in. Either fish (who create ammonia in their waste) or straight ammonia was added. Now there is food in the environment which attracts and builds up colonies of bacteria who thrive on this food and convert it to nitrites. How do they get in the water? Simple. If you don't introduce them on the bodies of your fish or via old tank water from an established aquarium (and some water conditioning solutions like 'Cycle' have them as an ingredient) since 3/4th of the world is covered in their habitat, they are also randomly in the air, floating dormant until they fall into water. Upon contact with moisture,they break free of their sealed pods and begin to feed and multiply. Hence why using plain conditioned water is sooo much harder to cycle. You're literally waiting for nature to take it's course.
Anyway, the Ammonia will stay high until there's enough bacteria to balance it out and meet the tank's supply (like a herd of deer with grass, they will reproduce until there's just enough deer for the amount of grass). At this point, their waste builds up. Nitrite. Food for the next set of bacteria! They will start building up just like the ammonia-eating bacteria did. When they are done, they excrete relatively harmless nitrates. There's nothing that consumes nitrates, so this is where the cycle ends. Normal water changes are done just to remove the accumulative nitrates, hence why there should always be trace amounts of nitrates in a tank. Because and efficient system has the ammonia being eaten and turned into nitrite, which is immediately consumed and made into nitrate.
Sounds much more simple when put that way, huh?
Now, back to the whole "I have high nitrites" thing. This is where people make the simple error of doing premature water changes. If you start taking away the nitrite-rich water, you're starving down your nitrite-eating bacteria (cutting back the grass the deer eat) This starves down their population to where they don't keep up with the amount of nitrites being produced by the normal ammonia-eating bacteria. You'll continue to struggle with the nitrite-eaters until they finally build up a colony large enough to handle all the nitrite that the ammonia-eaters make. So you might as well just let the nitrite spike and allow the bacteria to rise to the occasion. Your tank will generally cycle faster. There have to be enough 'deer' to consume all the 'grass' in order for your tank to cycle and become balanced.
This is also why adding a large amount of new fish creates a mini-cycle. Because you're adding more 'grass' to feed the 'deer'... more fish means more ammonia and more nitrite being produced than what the colony normally eats, so they have to boost their numbers to make up for the new production before it will balance again.
Terrible as it is, the best thing you can do is just leave the tank as-is and hope for the best. This is part of why fishless cycling was created. So that fish wouldn't have to endure the stresses of the fluctuating toxins before the tank was balanced and ready for them. But I've always done fish-in-tank cycling, so I'm not about to say it's evil... it just has its drawbacks like anything else, but that's just a personal opinion.
I can't solve the puking-barb dilemma... but I hope this helps to shine some light into the often-boggling reason why cycling is necessary and what happens when we cycle aquariums and why it goes through the processes that it does.
My reasoning? Think of your filter as a tiny ecosystem. There is food and those who must eat said food and then there is the waste they create. Ammonia is the food initially. A set of bacteria consume this ammonia as a source of energy and convert it to nitrites. But the nitrites are food to a second set of bacteria who consume it for energy and produce nitrates as waste.
So... we have a bare tank that has just had water poured in. Either fish (who create ammonia in their waste) or straight ammonia was added. Now there is food in the environment which attracts and builds up colonies of bacteria who thrive on this food and convert it to nitrites. How do they get in the water? Simple. If you don't introduce them on the bodies of your fish or via old tank water from an established aquarium (and some water conditioning solutions like 'Cycle' have them as an ingredient) since 3/4th of the world is covered in their habitat, they are also randomly in the air, floating dormant until they fall into water. Upon contact with moisture,they break free of their sealed pods and begin to feed and multiply. Hence why using plain conditioned water is sooo much harder to cycle. You're literally waiting for nature to take it's course.
Anyway, the Ammonia will stay high until there's enough bacteria to balance it out and meet the tank's supply (like a herd of deer with grass, they will reproduce until there's just enough deer for the amount of grass). At this point, their waste builds up. Nitrite. Food for the next set of bacteria! They will start building up just like the ammonia-eating bacteria did. When they are done, they excrete relatively harmless nitrates. There's nothing that consumes nitrates, so this is where the cycle ends. Normal water changes are done just to remove the accumulative nitrates, hence why there should always be trace amounts of nitrates in a tank. Because and efficient system has the ammonia being eaten and turned into nitrite, which is immediately consumed and made into nitrate.
Sounds much more simple when put that way, huh?
Now, back to the whole "I have high nitrites" thing. This is where people make the simple error of doing premature water changes. If you start taking away the nitrite-rich water, you're starving down your nitrite-eating bacteria (cutting back the grass the deer eat) This starves down their population to where they don't keep up with the amount of nitrites being produced by the normal ammonia-eating bacteria. You'll continue to struggle with the nitrite-eaters until they finally build up a colony large enough to handle all the nitrite that the ammonia-eaters make. So you might as well just let the nitrite spike and allow the bacteria to rise to the occasion. Your tank will generally cycle faster. There have to be enough 'deer' to consume all the 'grass' in order for your tank to cycle and become balanced.
This is also why adding a large amount of new fish creates a mini-cycle. Because you're adding more 'grass' to feed the 'deer'... more fish means more ammonia and more nitrite being produced than what the colony normally eats, so they have to boost their numbers to make up for the new production before it will balance again.
Terrible as it is, the best thing you can do is just leave the tank as-is and hope for the best. This is part of why fishless cycling was created. So that fish wouldn't have to endure the stresses of the fluctuating toxins before the tank was balanced and ready for them. But I've always done fish-in-tank cycling, so I'm not about to say it's evil... it just has its drawbacks like anything else, but that's just a personal opinion.
I can't solve the puking-barb dilemma... but I hope this helps to shine some light into the often-boggling reason why cycling is necessary and what happens when we cycle aquariums and why it goes through the processes that it does.
Thanks for the detailed response. Right now my ammonia is 0, nitrites at 1.0, and nitrates at 15ppm. At what level of nitrites would you allow to rise before you feel a water change is necessary?
My experiences sort of reflects your post. When I did my constant water changes, my nitrites would skyrocket very quickly. When I did infrequent water changes, my nitrites would rise a lot more slowly and taper off.
My experiences sort of reflects your post. When I did my constant water changes, my nitrites would skyrocket very quickly. When I did infrequent water changes, my nitrites would rise a lot more slowly and taper off.
This is part of why fishless cycling was created. So that fish wouldn't have to endure the stresses of the fluctuating toxins before the tank was balanced and ready for them. But I've always done fish-in-tank cycling, so I'm not about to say it's evil... it just has its drawbacks like anything else, but that's just a personal opinion.
/agree with you.
That is one approach...and one that is certainly best for the "tank"
However, I would argue that if you do a fishy-cycle, you have an obligation to the "animals" that you are placing in this stressful environment. The cycle may take a few extra days or a week!? Well, it's a small price IMO. If all you are going to do is place a fish in a cess-pool and hope for the best, why get the fish in the first place?! Food for the bacteria?
...and in volkl23's case, if he has a water issue, better to find out now, or whatever the issue is...
I'm not saying don't do a fish cycle, they have their benefits and uses, but if you do own up to it and take the responsibility is all I'm saying (this isn't directed at anyone BTW). I'm sorry for the inconvienence(sp?) it may cause, but I will side with the fish every single time on this issue (they didn't ask to be put here, we did).
FWIW, just my own opinion - not directed at anyone, so please bear with me here.
Sorry I got of topic here.
