High NitrAtes with a heavily planted tank??

[plantbrain]

Yeah...but when your breeding sensitive species like Oto's and shrimps .... 40 is actually a very big deal.

You mean high grade CRS or fire reds?
These all came out of a tank that was dosed 45ppm NO3 per week and was well feed on top of that adding to the N loading per week.

Red whiptails I've breed continuously for the last year. I can not stop these things, they bred like roaches. Plenty of the local plant club folks have seen them too.
If the N all comes from say fish waste, as organic N and then NH4=. then finally NO3...that is another situation/very different than dosing with KNO3.

I have no problems breeding a shrimp, which most would assume to be a better canary for nutrient toxicity. They are more sensitive to CO2 than fish in general and brood production is reduced vs a non CO2 planted tank. I've noted this amongst other shrimp breeders. But quite a few folks have dosed EI without issues and in non CO2 planted tanks.

 

[plantbrain]

You're right there!

Oto breeding tank = sensitive tank. Regardless what anyone else may think. If they weren't breeding, it wouldn't bother me as much.

So have you actually tested your hypothesis, eg, have you aded 40ppm of NO3 as KNO3 to this tank and measured brood production?
This is much easier with shrimp due to their prolific brood production and rapid generational time.

Are you are making an untested assumption and likely unwilling to test the assumption? Not that I blame you for not doing so.......but you cannot say much unless you test it either.
Still, maintaining say 5-10 ppm of NO3 is fine for many folks, or more......say 20-40ppm, MAYBE EVEN MORE. I'm not sure because they rarely go above this in my tanks, but they do get well above 20ppm.

My point is there is no to very little demonstrated risk to any fish species, including Wild Discus breeding in the tanks I've done. Sturisoma and Redwhiptails I've bred recently for the last few months at excess of 30ppm of NO3. Plenty of warnings and hypothesis, none of which ever seem to be curiously........tested. And no data, just generalizations, nothing quantative. I'd say CO2 is a far more lethal and Excel etc vs any nutrient, and quite a few shrimp folks agree with this as well. Many folks love to stick to the old myths of nutrients being the root of all evil.........rather than blaming the CO2.
It's quite pervasive throughout the hobby. Very few falsification attempts are ever done and thus little real knowledge is gained as to what is truly bad for fish, shrimp or the concentrational ranges.
If you do not know this range, you are guessing. So where does the risk factor start since you brought it up?
What range(be specific)??

If you "know" then you should be able to show this range and others should be able to test it as well or compare other shrimp or fish species as a comparison.
I do not know much, but I can test things and see if they are true.

 

[James0816]

James doesn't need extra luck - he's got an amazing history of breeding oto's with the journal thread to prove it!

That being said, I think that his question isn't how he can encourage spawning, but just wanting clarification/feedback on why nitrates in his tank were at 40ppm when, in his mind, they should be lower in a heavily planted tank.

Thanks, and this one hits the nail on the head. That's all I am inquiring about.

 

[James0816]

If you "know" then you should be able to show this range and others should be able to test it as well or compare other shrimp or fish species as a comparison.
I do not know much, but I can test things and see if they are true.

I don't make assumptions about anything. And yes, I conduct many, many tests. There's nothing more I love than to put on my simulated lab coat and safety glasses and give er a go. All of my projects are "live" tests if you will. You don't learn by reading ... you learn by doing. This is why you have to say "Results may vary."

As for comparison's....would absolutely love to compare notes with other Oto breeders. Know of any?

 

[fishorama]

Is this the oto tank where you've had a break in the breeding action lately? It may not be the higher nitrates but it may indicate something is out of whack. Too bad we can't easily test for more stuff.

 

[James0816]

That is one of the tanks that has the higher than normal nitrAtes. And, that is the only parm that is off from the usual. I've stopped the ferts all together at the moment and will monitor the levels til they get back in the zone where they should be. Then we'll go from there.

All in all...four tanks have reached this level (nitrAtes) and coincidentally, these same four tanks just happen to be the most heavily planted tanks. Go figure. All other tanks have less plants and the nitrAtes are right where I want them at 20. You can probably see where the confusion is coming in at here.

 

[plantbrain]

And yes, I conduct many, many tests.

So answer the direct question if you have done the test as you claim.
Over what range of NO3 is this true ...independent of other factors?

You have a reference, the tank that is breeding the otto's, simply add the KNO3 and test to see.
It will not say if you have true independence, however, if you dose to say 40ppm for 2 weeks and the fish and breeding are still fine, then you can say it is not due to NO3 over a range of say 0-40ppm for 2-3 weeks etc. Independent of other factors. You cannot control everything, but you can control NO3. This is much easier to test and rule things out this way.

I cannot say that the shrimp and fish I have bred will not breed at 80ppm, because I have not had the NO3 that high. I have made errors and ended up dosing 160ppm + to a tank, others have done so as well due to mistakes, and no one noticed any fish deaths or problems afterward. These tanks also had ottos, but they where not breeding. The other species included Apistos and dozen other species etc, many rare plecos and amano shrimp.

The question is not so much are they healthy and okay......I think that is a VERY easy test to falsify, the question is about breeding/brood production. So you need a breeder to test this hypothesis. If you are the only one to breed ottos, then only you will be able to test it by dosing KNO3 to 40ppm. Then you will know if it is due to KNO3 dosing.

We KNOW that the otto cats are fine at and well above 40ppm for NO3, whether or not they breed is a different question. Even then you could argue it's the genetic sock of your that are more sensitive than say mine are. Yes, CRS folks have tried this same argument with the high grades and there might be something to it. I cannot say. But as these test rule out more and more "causes", the back stepping becomes increasingly less likely as a generalization about NO3 being some detrimental thing. Inbred shrimp would seem far more sensitive.

The OP's question about risk to fish/livestock and KNO3 is dosing has been answered, There's no risk that anyone can show definitively.
They also have a method to calibrate their test method for verification.

Is the OP breeding otto cats?
Not likely, can you say definitively that 40ppm of NO3 from KNO3 is the cut off?
Not based on what you have said thus far. You have bred them, but that does not say anything over what ranges they are tolerant breeding wise. I know they are fine over a very large range, 0-80ppm over the long term for general health from KNO3 dosing alone.


Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[Cerianthus]

James doesn't need extra luck - he's got an amazing history of breeding oto's with the journal thread to prove it! :thm:

I dont doubt it as I have done enough, maybe more than decades ago, some induced and many on their own(observation & recording of datas including action taken on such tank gave/yielded much improved occurrences), sometimes even in a water that many in this forum may consider a TOXIC environment, not that I recommend of course.
I would like to see more members/hobbyists just sit back, relax & enjoy the tanks as it should be rather than have what I find UNNECESSARY work(?) on many postings waiting at home after long long hours at Work. That is all!!

That being said, I think that his question isn't how he can encourage spawning, but just wanting clarification/feedback on why nitrates in his tank were at 40ppm when, in his mind, they should be lower in a heavily planted tank.

Perhaps he could only answer as Noone else can monitor everything he does/has done, not that I want to. Some factors he may have easily overlooked or consider as non variable but actually affects/affected the final outcome???

My main point was that I didnt see anything wrong with this tank in reference to other concerned(?)postings from members. Nothing less nothing more!:goldfish:.

 

[Cerianthus]

Tom, I must poke thru your forum as I may have missed a lot in last 10+ yrs. Looking forward to it & See you there!

 

[James0816]

Folks, please. My question is in absolutley no way, 1000%, related to breeding or health of the flora or fauna of the tanks. Period. I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from. The title specifically states the question.

The question is merely, and I state again just to clarify, why nitrAtes would be higher in a heavily planted tank as opposed to that of tanks with a lesser amount of plants. That is all I'm inquiring about. I wasn't looking for advice on breeding. I wasn't looking for advice on maintenance or fert dosing schedules. Heck .... I'm not even looking for advice in general.

Just thought that someone might have some thoughts as to why this would occur on different tanks that get the same lighting, the same fert dosing, the same maintenance. The only thing that is different would be the type of fauna (i.e shrimp and oto species), substrate (in some cases) and plants (species and quantity). The tanks with the highest density of plants are the tanks with the highest NO3. Not the tanks with the least amount of plants. In my mind, that is completely backwards but I'm sure there is a perfectly good and logical explaination for it.