Hybridization in progress...UGH!!
- Thread starter RyJ
- Start date
my opinion:
the hybridization of fish, most notably cichlids, is largely confined to captive bred cichlids. Central American cichlasomines, Lake Malawi mbuna and Haplochromines or Lake Victoria cichlids will all readily crossbreed in the home aquarium if not provided with appropriate mates. hybrids appear to be rare in the wild due to natural ecological barriers.
The accidental hybridization of cichlids is a common problem in the hobby and most responsible aquarists cull the fry or eggs. the creation of hybrids for profit, and their unscrupulous marketing as a 'new species' of cichlid is considered very poor husbandry and should not be condoned.
The intentional creation of hybrids has a number of negative aspects:
"Money" is more important than the fish's health. Sadly with the immense pressure on marketers to create "something new" for consumer demand often results in cosmetic/surgical mutilation of fishes. The removal of the fishes fins or tail is not uncommon. from the minimal amount of scar tissue surrounding the removed appendage it must be assumed that this is undertaken when the fish are still developing (under 1 cm). This process must, by its nature, be devastating on the fishes health, and it is reasonable to assume that many fishes do not survive to adulthood. There is also an issue of "quality of life" to be considered - hybrid cichlids, such as the red blood parrot, have deformed jaws and swim bladder problems. Cichlids are reknowned for high intelligence and complex behavioural patterns, such that gross anatomical deformities, impinge on the normal behaviours of the fish.
Philosopical and ethical concerns. many hobbyists, me in included, dislike hybrids because their deliberate creation demonstrates a certain amount of arrogance -- the idea that we can improve upon natural beauty. there are currently over 1500 species of cichlids in the wild. this is a large amount of naturally occuring diversity and it seems unnecessary to create hybrids just because it can be done. this natural diversity is fundamental to the attraction most people have for the cichlid keeping hobby. the creation of designer "Franken-fish" detracts from the natural diversity present in this assemblage of fishes.
The diversity of cichlid species is such that identification is a fundamentally difficult thing at best, and to confuse the issue with fish that do not exist in the wild makes it an nearly impossible task.
Perhaps of most concern is the way hybrid cichlids like the flowerhorn or 'blood parrot' could be mistakenly identified as "pure" cichlid species. It is conceiveable that poor quality flowerhorns, could be mistaken for cichlids such as A. trimaculatus or A. citrinellus and bred back with the original species. this has already occured in cichlids such as Vieja synspilus, V. maculicauda and V. bimaculatus, and this only due to accidental hybridization by hobbyists. with the deliberate large scale production of hundreds of thousands of hybrids, the risk to the hobby is increased many times over. In Australia at present it is very difficult to find good "pure" strains of the Vieja species mentioned above or "pure" discus species such as the brown discus.
reintroduction of cichlids in the hobby into natural settings can become a problem. it already is in Florida. with the threat to many ecosystems globally, the cichlid hobby may provide future sources of endangered fish for re-introduction into the wild. It is therefore important that all cichlid keepers are aware that the fish we maintain in our aquaria are potentially endangered in the wild, due to a variety of factors eg: competition from other species such as the Nile Perch and urban development. In this awareness it is important to strive - wherever possible, to maintain cichlids in our aquariums as they exist in the wild.
Specimen firehorns are created by hybridizing certain cichlid species and culling heavily to leave only those fish with a certain appearance. These resulting fish, although they may be fertile, do not represent genetically stable bloodlines and, when bred to each other, wind up generating a random hodge-podge of mongrel fish which may or may not display the characteristics of their parents, but are almost certain to suffer from various maladies and as a result die at an earlier age.
So why do people keep producing hybrid fish? A one word answer applies here: marketing.
In summary:
1. the demand for "new" and "different" breeds of hybrids such as the flowerhorn and the "blood parrot" has lead to a number of cruel practices including tattooing of fish, removal of tails or eyes, intentional damage to the spine and dying.
2. hybrid fish make identification of similar cichlids difficult.
3. hybrid cichlids have the potential to be acidentally bred with "pure" species lines.
4. the cichlid keeping hobby has responsibilities to the fish it is dedicated to, in ecological terms. although not currently standard practice, pure species may, in the future, be required for re-introduction to habitats currently under threat from urban development.
5. some hybrid fish exhibit particularly deformed anatomical features which lead to troubles feeding, swimming and undertaking behaviour normal to these fishes. this is of considerable moral and ethical concern.
what should you do to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem? JUST SAY NO to hybridization by not buying such fish and by destroying happenstance hybrids that occur in your own tanks.
the hybridization of fish, most notably cichlids, is largely confined to captive bred cichlids. Central American cichlasomines, Lake Malawi mbuna and Haplochromines or Lake Victoria cichlids will all readily crossbreed in the home aquarium if not provided with appropriate mates. hybrids appear to be rare in the wild due to natural ecological barriers.
The accidental hybridization of cichlids is a common problem in the hobby and most responsible aquarists cull the fry or eggs. the creation of hybrids for profit, and their unscrupulous marketing as a 'new species' of cichlid is considered very poor husbandry and should not be condoned.
The intentional creation of hybrids has a number of negative aspects:
"Money" is more important than the fish's health. Sadly with the immense pressure on marketers to create "something new" for consumer demand often results in cosmetic/surgical mutilation of fishes. The removal of the fishes fins or tail is not uncommon. from the minimal amount of scar tissue surrounding the removed appendage it must be assumed that this is undertaken when the fish are still developing (under 1 cm). This process must, by its nature, be devastating on the fishes health, and it is reasonable to assume that many fishes do not survive to adulthood. There is also an issue of "quality of life" to be considered - hybrid cichlids, such as the red blood parrot, have deformed jaws and swim bladder problems. Cichlids are reknowned for high intelligence and complex behavioural patterns, such that gross anatomical deformities, impinge on the normal behaviours of the fish.
Philosopical and ethical concerns. many hobbyists, me in included, dislike hybrids because their deliberate creation demonstrates a certain amount of arrogance -- the idea that we can improve upon natural beauty. there are currently over 1500 species of cichlids in the wild. this is a large amount of naturally occuring diversity and it seems unnecessary to create hybrids just because it can be done. this natural diversity is fundamental to the attraction most people have for the cichlid keeping hobby. the creation of designer "Franken-fish" detracts from the natural diversity present in this assemblage of fishes.
The diversity of cichlid species is such that identification is a fundamentally difficult thing at best, and to confuse the issue with fish that do not exist in the wild makes it an nearly impossible task.
Perhaps of most concern is the way hybrid cichlids like the flowerhorn or 'blood parrot' could be mistakenly identified as "pure" cichlid species. It is conceiveable that poor quality flowerhorns, could be mistaken for cichlids such as A. trimaculatus or A. citrinellus and bred back with the original species. this has already occured in cichlids such as Vieja synspilus, V. maculicauda and V. bimaculatus, and this only due to accidental hybridization by hobbyists. with the deliberate large scale production of hundreds of thousands of hybrids, the risk to the hobby is increased many times over. In Australia at present it is very difficult to find good "pure" strains of the Vieja species mentioned above or "pure" discus species such as the brown discus.
reintroduction of cichlids in the hobby into natural settings can become a problem. it already is in Florida. with the threat to many ecosystems globally, the cichlid hobby may provide future sources of endangered fish for re-introduction into the wild. It is therefore important that all cichlid keepers are aware that the fish we maintain in our aquaria are potentially endangered in the wild, due to a variety of factors eg: competition from other species such as the Nile Perch and urban development. In this awareness it is important to strive - wherever possible, to maintain cichlids in our aquariums as they exist in the wild.
Specimen firehorns are created by hybridizing certain cichlid species and culling heavily to leave only those fish with a certain appearance. These resulting fish, although they may be fertile, do not represent genetically stable bloodlines and, when bred to each other, wind up generating a random hodge-podge of mongrel fish which may or may not display the characteristics of their parents, but are almost certain to suffer from various maladies and as a result die at an earlier age.
So why do people keep producing hybrid fish? A one word answer applies here: marketing.
In summary:
1. the demand for "new" and "different" breeds of hybrids such as the flowerhorn and the "blood parrot" has lead to a number of cruel practices including tattooing of fish, removal of tails or eyes, intentional damage to the spine and dying.
2. hybrid fish make identification of similar cichlids difficult.
3. hybrid cichlids have the potential to be acidentally bred with "pure" species lines.
4. the cichlid keeping hobby has responsibilities to the fish it is dedicated to, in ecological terms. although not currently standard practice, pure species may, in the future, be required for re-introduction to habitats currently under threat from urban development.
5. some hybrid fish exhibit particularly deformed anatomical features which lead to troubles feeding, swimming and undertaking behaviour normal to these fishes. this is of considerable moral and ethical concern.
what should you do to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem? JUST SAY NO to hybridization by not buying such fish and by destroying happenstance hybrids that occur in your own tanks.
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cull them. make them vanish. use as feeders. separate the pair. whatever you want to do to assure they don't get beyond your tanks.
L2P articulates the case against that word that periodically makes the rounds on-line, frankenfish, very well.
L2P articulates the case against that word that periodically makes the rounds on-line, frankenfish, very well.
Sully said:
sirasoni said:
it is abuse/cruel/inhumane if a "pure" cichlid is hurt or killed but when it happens to a mutt aka hybrid it is perfectly ok?
Personally, I would keep 1 or 2 to see what they look like. The rest I'd use as feeders. And I'll make sure they don't go beyond my tanks. I won't sell nor breed them. But that's just my opinion. Show me a pic if you decide to keep some. :dive:
managuay86 said:
There are several phases people that get into this hobby can go through. Each defined not by the fish they keep rather by how they keep the fish and the understanding of fish as something other than a disposable object subject to our whims.
As some of the people that come and go on this board know i try to stay off soapboxes. I realize my limits of knowledge and expertise. Hell, i have not even contributed frequently at this particular site over the years. Look at the join date and post count and it is obvious. So, I will try to be quick and to the point (then again i may meander). Understanding of course that I cannot change someone's mind or opinion. All I can do is offer something that might want to be considered and tossed about in the grey matter.
I got "serious" in the hobby as a teenager (or so I thought). That was in the 60's (so yes, i am an old fart). I had a little 10 gallon tank. I got a "Siamese fighting fish". Thought it was cool. So I got 3 more. I figured that if god did not want them to fight, stress each other out, and cause one another to die then he would have only made one of em. I did not make the intellectual leap required to understand that my little fish bowl (yep, a 10 gallon is a little fish bowl) was hardly a fair comparison to native habitat. If I had I would have realized that god (or whatever it is that created/caused life) got around the "one of" problem by creating incredibly large habitats. Ones which gave fish the opportunity to avoid one another. Ones which permitted the "fight or flight" response to be successful. My little fish tank assured only one outcome. Fight.
Tanks came and went in my life. Then my bride-to-be (she did not know that yet-- I did) bought me a 10 gallon set-up the first Christmas that we were together (I bought her diamond earrings to let you know how badly I miscalculated the relationship--lol). I put water in it and got some guppies. Never really thought much about it. Just let the breeding occur. I mixed in other gups. I was amazed, over time, at how much prettier the gups were getting.
In 77 i started shacking up with my bride-to-be (at that point the wedding had been planned, invitations were out, and we were only months away from what every man that has been married for nearly 30 years will recognize as unmitigated wedded bliss--lol). We lived in a small one bedroom apartment. We started buying tanks--lots of them. The floor was a carpeted slab so we gave no consideration to weight load--or the wall-to-wall carpeting. Man did we get fish. lots of them. from every river, region, and continent. we tossed them in tanks. with little or no concern for water parameters, decor, or even species compatibility. And, back then (do all the other "old folk" miss the good old days when hobbyist bred was the exception and wild caughts were the norm?) we were dealing with "wild fish".
Boy did we learn a lot in a hurry. Fortunately I made a lot of money coming out of the gate after college so I did not really notice the $$$ being wasted. But, it was at that point I began to think about what I was doing. For the first time I was experiencing significant fish loss. Part of it was the lack (initially) of a qt process. The majority of it because of my ignorance. I felt bad. Really bad. Not about the $$$. About the lives of my pets that I was figuratively flushing down the drain. (i froze the bodies and put them out with the trash even then. think about it--the "bodies out with the trash").
I realized that i had little choice. I could stop keeping fish because i obviously did not deserve to keep them. Or, i could start getting more books and learn what I needed to know. I started paying more for books then i was for fish.
It took me over 10 years of casual fishkeeping to get to the point where i had to make a decision. how much of keeping fish was about me and how much of keeping fish was about them. I came to the conclusion that it was mostly about me and was disappointed (i had been one of them long haired hippy types as a youth and did not like the inconsistency of the answer between what I thought i was and what i had seemingly become).
We started to set tanks up by bio-tope (golly, i must be gettin smarter--i did not use that word then. We started setting up "very" compatible communities. We started with species tanks. And, even contributed to the "hobbyist bred" fish available at local fish stores. We recognized the occurrence of "old tank syndrome". Had to learn that one on our own back then, And, began a weekly regime of large pwc's.
Several years later we bought our first home--still in it. Like the neighborhood--lol. We got pregnant. We began to raise our family. The tanks vanished for several years. I kept active with fish through friends and tanks at the office. What I thought of as a double edged sword became common at the lfs. Wild caughts became an exception and not the norm. Hobbyist (and now farm fish) bred became prevalent.
Remember, I am an old hippy type. While no one would call me a "tree hugger" I am and have been aware of what man has been and continues to do to our environment.
I got back into the hobby with tanks of my own a number of years back. I was really disappointed at the lack of diversity of fish available at the lfs. On another board you can see that I have been posting for nearly a year trying to track down specimens of what were once relatively common fish in the hobby (look at my avatar. If you have that fish i am after 6-12 juvies or a breeding pair).
I discovered the internet world of fishkeeping. I lurked at another board for some time. i began to learn the state of fishkeeping today. i was delighted to discover the science behind what us "old guys" had intuitively discovered decades ago.
but, as I learned the basics of some of the chemistry involved I also began to catch up and discover so much more about the habitats of our fish. And, as a result I also learned about the vanishing nature of many of the species that fishkeepers have known and loved.
Yes, more species are identified daily. And, the absence of many species is noted daily.
So, I am finally to a point. Man has screwed up the rivers, lakes, stream, and ponds that are the origin of our fish. The declining populations and endangerment, even extinction of many species is not being experienced in only a single or isolated region. It is endemic to all areas. Marine and Freshwater; Tropical and Coldwater fish are being threatened.
The question becomes "what is our responsibility to preserve vanishing bloodlines to assist in the preservation and reintroduction of species on a world wide basis"? Hybridization threatens to destroy bloodlines. Not because a single hobbyist permits it in his or her tanks. Rather it is because the hybrids make it into the general population of existing fish. Many of the specimens appearing exactly like existing species to the eye. These in turn are bred with other species--or they are sterile and prevent the planned propagation and preservation of a species.
So, it becomes a question of is the hobby about you? Or, is the hobby about the fish? You will find many, many of the regular posters on this board (and we are usually at several others) have examined their motives and come to a conclusion: we will enjoy the hobby--but it is about the fish. And we will stridently preach that message.
People that don't come to that conclusion need to understand that their personal amusement is secondary (in many peoples mind) to a long term goal of a much greater scope than a hobbyist simply getting his rocks off by playing creation games that damage, destroy, and impede serious attempts to preserve the genetics and bloodlines of species.
So, I guess all i can say is "think about it". I am fairly confident that if you are honest with yourself--and not simply playing troll games--you will understand the motivations of the people that you seemingly deride in threads and posts.
Have we been there and done it--you bet. Have we screwed up--absolutely. Do we learn as we mature in a "hobby"--one can only hope.
Have we figured out it is something significantly more than a hobby--beyond any doubt.
Are we environmental nazis, tree huggers, or whatever the fringe thinkers in a much bigger picture are called--no.
We just realize that fish are a life form and deserve every consideration that entails.
sorry i did not spell/grammar check or edit--i babbled much longer than i thought i would.
