I gotta admit

[Holly9937]

Also, the washing part (if you were serious) is just to get the dust and debris off the gravel. I forgot to do this once and dumped it in the tank (no fish were in there yet) and the tank was really cloudy for a day or two. I have some of that gravel downstairs as we speak, yeah, a little strange...
I think some people on here, and any fish board for that matter just get frustrated with people who do not research before they buy fish and stock a 10 gallon tank with clown loaches for instance. Maybe they are just saying that you wouldn't buy any other animal (horse, whatever,) without having the proper housing for it, so why do people do it to fish?? I also realize that some people don't really consider fish "real" animals or pets. They are alot easier to not care for properly because they're not like a dog or a cat that can kind of let you know they're unhappy.
So any less scared? LOL

 

[gsk177]

Im gonna assume you read one of my posts.....I have been known to have very little tollerance to those who fail to educate themselves about an animal they knowingly seek out to keep.

Its once thing to get a "surprise" gift or "surprise" animal and are now forced into trying to keep it properly, but when one goes out and INTENTIONALLY buys and spends hard earned money on a hobby, I can only imagine that that person wishes to have a pleasant experience for both him/herself and their animal.

When comparing fish to horses or dogs, that is no accident. This comparison is quite accurated as it relates to particular animals that one chooses to keep. It seems people give WAY more thoughfulness and foresight into planning when it comes to keeping a dog or a horse. While $$ may not be the sole issue, improper housing of a dog or horse can cause other ill effects as well. Dogs attacking children, barking, getting loose, growing too big for provided housing, are all very tangible effects of which 99.99% of the population are well aware. But when it comes to housing a fish, most people do not give the same credance to this animal as they do to dogs or cats.

I saw in a post you made that you are going to go "old school" and fishy cycle. IMO this is irresponsible and on par with buying a dog and sticking it in a back yard that has sewage seeping through the lawn, and giving it contaminated drinking water.

I also compare housing housing inappropriately sized fish in unsuitable tanks. Buying a baby Oscar and putting him in a 30g tank is on par with buying a great dane puppy and housing it in an apartment. In BOTH situations, the buyer is buying an animal that he/she KNOWS will outgrow it surrounding in a very short amount of time. My premise is that 99.99% of the people would never even consider buying a great dane puppy and keeping it in an apt. but those same people would not hesitate to buy an Oscar or similar fish and throw it in a 30g tank.

I guess what Im trying to say is that fish seem to get overlooked when it comes to humane treatment. Larger animals tend to become OBVIOUS niusances when housed improperly and fish are more easily overlooked. They can not bark, they do not have the ability to wake you up in the middle of the night, they do start attacking your children, they do not stink to high heaven when they poop.

WHile the fish may not cry audibly, they are still in pain when housed improperly.

Us "fish folk" hold our animals in very high regaurds. We want the best water, surroundings, and LIVES for our friends. The same as someone who owns a loyal Boxer dog, or Lab.

Personally, I get the same ill feeling in my stomach when I see a post from someone who has a GROSSLY overstocked tank, as you do when you hear on the news of someone keeping 30 cats in their home.

Maybe your fish don't mean as much to you as your dogs or cats, but mine do. I want the best possible lives for them I can offer....if I can't, I will give them to someone who can.

You can take this for what its worth, though, but I voted W would vote again for W if he could run, and will, without a doubt, vote for the next Republican nominee.

 

[ScottoMacD]

I saw in a post you made that you are going to go "old school" and fishy cycle. IMO this is irresponsible and on par with buying a dog and sticking it in a back yard that has sewage seeping through the lawn, and giving it contaminated drinking water.


Us "fish folk" hold our animals in very high regaurds. We want the best water, surroundings, and LIVES for our friends. The same as someone who owns a loyal Boxer dog, or Lab.

My friend you need to lighten up a bit.

Just because you like the fishless way of cycling a tank does not mean that it is the RIGHT way. There are much greater evils in the world to get upity about. The fish/fishless cycle is not one of them. Leave that for the freak terrorists in PETA.

Both are more than acceptable ways of getting to the same point. When done properly both allow fish to live long happy lives. Being in the fish retail business I can promise you that more fish die daily from the shipping methods from the suppliers to the fish stores around the world than die from cycling from fish. The average store fataility upon recieveing a new shipment is anywhere from 10 to 40%. That is weekly and not including saltwater fish. Which tends to be higher and uses cyanide to catch the fish.

If you want to get on your soapbox and preach. Do it in front of all the irresponsible suppliers out there. Not to the aquarist that has made the choice to go with fish instead of fishless.

Next Don't lump everyone into your "my way or the highway" attitude by saying US fish folk. In 23 years of keeping tanks yes I do take my hobby seriously. I do also realize however that my personal opinions on the matter will not change one thing. There are people out there that really don't give a dâmn about the hobby, but on the other hand there are people who do care and are learning "their way" of doing things. By thinking that you are going to change people by going hard line on some one who honestly cares about what they are doing is going to have the oppsoite effect of what you want. They will just turn around and say to héll with the hobby.

Nobody wants that. Everyone should be able to enjoy it their way. Fish or fishless

 

[gsk177]

Just because you like the fishless way of cycling a tank does not mean that it is the RIGHT way. QUOTE]

No, it IS the right way to cycle a tank. While both methods eventually end with the same result, a cycled tank, fishless cycling produces ZERO negative effects on your fish. Fishy cycling ALWAYS harms your fish. While they may not die from these toxic effects, you can NOT sit there and tell me that they are not suffering to some degree.
My gripe and "soapbox" stance is geared towards those individuals who, after weighing the options, CHOOSE to fishy cycle over fishless. This, IMO is an irresponsible method and an irresponsible attitude.

There are much greater evils in the world to get upity about.

Agreed. But we are not talking about world affairs are we? We are on a fish board talking about how to cycle a tank. Lighten up.

Both are more than acceptable ways of getting to the same point. When done properly both allow fish to live long happy lives.

If your fish happen to make it through the fishy cycle!! That is my entire point. Fishless cycling does NOT involve fish at all, thus they are in no way subjected to ANY dangerous conditions.

Being in the fish retail business I can promise you that more fish die daily from the shipping methods from the suppliers to the fish stores around the world than die from cycling from fish. The average store fataility upon recieveing a new shipment is anywhere from 10 to 40%. That is weekly and not including saltwater fish. Which tends to be higher and uses cyanide to catch the fish.

The retail problems surrounding fishkeeping are not something I can readily effect. I cannot control how a fish store or supplier houses their fish or how they are shipped or raised. I can, however, control how I choose to keep my fish, and I CAN attempt to inform and educate others into PROPER ways of cycling a tank.
Again, we are NOT talking about the retail end of the business. We ARE, however, talking about responsible ways to cycle a tank. I'm trying to stay on topic.

If you want to get on your soapbox and preach. Do it in front of all the irresponsible suppliers out there. Not to the aquarist that has made the choice to go with fish instead of fishless.

In order to stay on topic, I have purposefully left out suppliers and retailers. I will limit my comments to the topic on hand. If you want to hear my soapbox on retailers, start another thread and I will gladly chime in.
I have an opinion on darn near everything, so I will not be short of words.

Next Don't lump everyone into your "my way or the highway" attitude by saying US fish folk.

I never said my way or the highway and it was not my intention to speak for everyone here. WHen I said "US" fishfolk, I was refering to those of us who take their hobby seriously and wish to educate ourselves in order to provide our fish the best possible lives. No way around it, choosing to fishy cycle over fishless cycling even after knowing and understanding the risks and benifits of each, is not looking after the best interest of the fish.

but on the other hand there are people who do care and are learning "their way" of doing things.

And somehow I am in the wrong for pointing out that "their way" may not be the safest way of doing things? Gimme a break. By pointing out that someone is making a bad decision somehow makes me the bad guy?

 

[Soulcoffr]

Gsk117,

I think what you're forgetting is that to the vast majority of people who wish to get started in the hobby, the idea of putting ammonia in a tank meant for living things presents a significant psychological barrier. Ammonia = cleaning solution/airway irritant.

On the other hand, fish live in water, therefore it's easy to believe that fishy cycling is the more prudent method. They're also eager to get fish in the tank in the first place. Never minding that the ammonia spikes are as harmful to them as regularly huffing the fumes off your own ammonia bottle.

As you are well aware, it takes time to change people's minds. Look how many people still aren't aware of the N2 cycle in the first place, who don't know that regular water changes are the only way to rid the tank of nitrates, fish waste and excess food, and who believe in the "inch per gallon" equation. So we should keep hammering away, until LFSs and newbie fishkeepers get the picture.

I think what Scotto was saying was that people at this stage, and in the forseeable future, will still choose the fishy cycling method, and that perhaps as members of this board, should consider that a fact. I'm not saying resign ourselves to that, but just deal with on a case by case basis. We should guide people through the safest possible method of fishy cycling because we know they're going to do it, as opposed to obstinantly rejecting the method altogether and risking the fishes' lives anyway. Because they'll write you off as a know-it-all or worse, and your message is lost.

I agree with all you've brought up, but Scotto has a valid point too. I'm not sure, however what R.B.'s point is... That all fishkeepers are tree-hugging, PETA Democrats? That's a major assumption on his part. And you know what they say about that...

 

[ScottoMacD]

I can, however, control how I choose to keep my fish, and I CAN attempt to inform and educate others into PROPER ways of cycling a tank.

I never said my way or the highway and it was not my intention to speak for everyone here. WHen I said "US" fishfolk, I was refering to those of us who take their hobby seriously and wish to educate ourselves in order to provide our fish the best possible lives. No way around it, choosing to fishy cycle over fishless cycling even after knowing and understanding the risks and benifits of each, is not looking after the best interest of the fish.

By pointing out that someone is making a bad decision somehow makes me the bad guy?

The first part of your quote here is the one proper thing you have said in this whole thing "control how I choose to keep my fish" Yes how YOU choose to keep your fish. Not anyone else YOU.

You keep on using the educate but you are not educating. You are coming off as the "well if you won't play by my rules I am taking my ball and going home!" attitude.

In some of the threads I have seen you post you have belittled people, called them uneducated, told them that you refused to help them anymore (like that will make a huge difference on a forum with 10 000+ people on it. ) What is that going to accomplish?

Whether you like it or not there are two main methods to cycle a tank and you can speak your peace towards your prefered way and hope that maybe the people will agree and do the same or something similar or they will go the other method BY CHOICE and you can be the serious hobbiest that you keep on claiming that you are and help them through it, or you can continue on as you are and take your ball and go home.

When people come here or any forum. They don't want to be chasized for their choices. They are here for help and info for their current situations. It's their tank to do with as THEY please. To live and die with the choices and results.

If this fish cycle thing bothers you so much because you are worried about the health of the fish. Well sorry my friend but you are in the wrong hobby.

What about all the people who buy fish for feeders? Not just feeder golds, there are so many like danios, mollies platties tetras the list goes on. Are you going to start up with them and tell them to go pellet because it is better for the fish that are going to be eaten.

Plus if it bothers you so why do you have tanks at all? Are the fish that are in your tank or mine or whoevers not better off left in the wild in their natural habitat instead of being placed into a limited size tank?

You can't be pro fish one way and then not see the confliction in the other.

I completely understand where you are coming from. I know that you just want to share your knowledge and views with people. We all do that is why we all come here but you can't force your views down anyones throat. If they don't agree or don't want to do it your way fine but don't harp. Let them do their thing and help them when you can. Maybe just maybe the next time around they will try it your way.

Like I always tell all of my clients. It's a hobby. It's suppose to be fun.

 

[Leopardess]

FWIW, I see no reasonable reason to use a fish-in cycle method. It accomplishes nothing extra, or special, or quicker. It harms the fish in the process. There is no plus to it except that it eases the inpatience of some people.

And ya'll - I don't think this is headed anywhere constructive.

 

[OrionGirl]

Nor do I. So call this strike one. Either the thread goes into a more useful direction, or it gets locked. OG

 

[rwcallen]

"If they keep quiet,the stones will cry out."

FWIW and :OT: The statement is a reply from Jesus to the Pharisees after they've told him to rebuke his disciples (of whom we're told just before there are a multitude, so it's the extended crowds, not just the main circle) for proclaiming the following: ""Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven, and glory in the highest!" The incident only occurs in Luke (not Matthew or Mark, which otherwise follow fairly closely in relating the triumphal entry into Jerusalem).

I have no Greek, a reading of the Vulgate Latin shows the translation to be ok to my eyes, literally would be "if they (the multitude) were to have been at peace, the stones would shout." The additional idea of proclaming Jesus as King being a part of the context adds the meaning of "proclaim" if one takes the Heavenly King as an understood object of the verb (using the verb "clamare" with an object sometimes means "proclaim" for that object, not just "shout"). I gather from a quick check of the Latin dictionary that the meaning also contains the possible idea of "echo, reverberate" if one is talking about inanimate objects (I will assume these rocks, at least, were not 'live' rocks), so there are a lot of possible meanings one can get out of this--always considering that the Latin was a translation of the Greek which was a single source (Luke) report of an original statement in Aramaic: makes the statement rather like one of those zen koans, doesn't it? But it does fit a lot of the oddball statements Jesus seems to have enjoyed firing off at Pharisees when they complained about one or another of his (or his followers) actions.

I'm sorry I posted if you hate reading this, but I was intrigued enough to look it up, and thought others might be interested. From each according to their abilities and all that: if I tried to post an answer about fish I'd have a lot of scaly deaths on my hands, but I can help with tracking down a quotation. BTW, thanks to all of you for the immense amount of information I've been able to learn so far by simply 'lurking'. I can't wait until I actually get an aquarium!
regards,
Bob

 

[R.B.]

Honestly folks.........Yall got this mantra...........The "Fishless" mantra.

I've asked questions on specfic things & all I get is go fishless for 2 months so I then can dump 20 fish in my tank at once.

I aint no brain surgeon but I'm guessin one guppy in a 20 gallon tank aint gonna harm anybody in any way.Or the guppy either.

I don't think yall are peta freaks..........Just weird.(And I don't think there are 100 peta freaks nationwide)

Do any of yall actually hunt or fish ???..........Maybe have raised hogs,cows,horses & chickens ????Believe it or not I actually use live bait to catch bigger fish just so I can fry em up.Duck season just closed & I spent my last 8 weekend tryin my best to kill mallards & Geese.And my Lab retrieved everyone one of em.

I'm guessin gsk has raised nuthin but cats & pretty fish.And is a little too close to pretty fish.And BTW..........Fish aint people.They aint better than people & aren't gonna make you any smarter or better looking.Being soft on pretty fish don't make you nuthin cept soft in the head.Fish don't have emotions.And all animals experiance "pain" way diffrently that humans do.

I asked about PH............nuthin
Asked about starter fish.........one reply
Asked about 5 other things............nuthin.

I get the fishless thing......It aint hard not to see.......It's a sticky at the top........Got it already.........I'm not uneducated cause I read yall's mantra & understand it fully.........I simply don't agree with it.If you want to wait 2 months knock yourselves out.I don't & won't & honestly I think yall lost your minds if you think it matters in any way if I go Old School.

I didn't once start this fight.I never once said fishless is crap.I never brought it up.I was told I was an ignorant arse because I'm gonna put a friggin guppy in a 20 gallon tank.

Now as far as trollin goes..........Most trolls are smart folk & I guess that's why yall hate em & think I'm one.

Ask the Admin to check my IP's & then send me a PM & they can call me on the phone.But if a fella did want to do some fishing in this forum he'd catch a ton.lol