Ich Treatment blues...

S

sbetsy

Registered Member
Apr 11, 2010
4
0
0
Utah
I'm a beginner and this is my first brush with ich.

A little info before my questions:

60 gallon tropical freshwater tank (4'X2'X1')
Substrate: light colored sand
Planted with moss ball, scarlet temple, anachris, onion plant and corkscrew
Occupants:
2 2" clown loach (yes, we will get a larger tank before they need it)
4 black skirt tetras (we are planning to increase to 6)
5 raspora hets
7 zebra long fin danios
0 neon tetras (but yesterday we had 5)
Last readings (taken today - between 2 15% water changes): ph-7.5, alkinity 120, hardness 150, nitrite .25, nitrate 15, ammonia 0
temperature: 80/81F

4 days ago we noticed some ich. So far we have treated with Kordon Rid Ich+ (malachite green and formalin) for 3 days (after removing the carbon filter). We vacuumed (our sand!) and did two 15% water changes. We treated the new water with a combination of Top Fin water conditioner and API stress zyme+. Last night we saw no signs of ich on our fish.This morning, 3 neon tetras were dead. We left the house for a little while and when we returned, 2 more neons were dead. The rasporas don't look as active as they usually seem and one of our clown loaches is hiding. I'm worried that he/she isn't doing well.

I think we've got 3-4 more doses of Rid Ich+ to go, based on advice I've gotten in the chat room, the instructions on the bottle and things I've seen in articles online.

Question #1: Does that sound right? I'm worried that it is the treatment that is now stressing our fish, but I don't want to stop treatment before the life cycle of the ich is complete b/c I know they are only vulnerable to medication while they are in the life stage where they are seeking a new host. At 81F, the life cycle should be about 4 days I think, but some spots in our tank don't seem to get above 80F.

Question #2: Is there something else I can do to protect the rest of my fish during this treatment? I am worried that the neons were the "canary in the coal mine" and that tomorrow more fish will be dead. I don't want to do another water change b/c I just did a 15% today.

Question #3: When should I replace the filters during the treatment - after the last dose? Now (because we can't see any more ich)?

Question #4: Is there anything I should do with my live plants? Oh, and my moss ball has been floating since we vacuumed. What's up with that?

Question #5: I've heard I should run my tank ornaments (some rocks, a couple structures and a rock with a hole in it) through the dishwasher. I've also heard that I should not do that. I've also heard that I just don't need to do that because I'm treating the tank with chemicals, so they should be fine. Any opinions?

Question #6: Is there any way to test to see if our ich is gone besides just waiting to see if it comes back?

Anything else I need to know?

Thanks!
 
There's a lot going on here, but good job on getting the aquarium info up right away!

Judging from your Nitrite levels, it looks like you had a bit of an ammonia spike in the tank for some reason. The only reason I could see for that is if there's something decomposing in the tank that sped up with the higher temperature. 81 is a bit high for the neons, but I don't think they'd drop from the temperature alone. I'm also wondering why use the stress-zyme? It's usually used as a bacteria in a bottle treatment to help jump start a filter during cycling. Was the tank cycled ahead of time? If not, an ammonia spike is the likely cause. Additionally, you may want to double-check your dosing. Malachite green is easily overdosed and can kill most everything in the tank if it gets overdone. Make sure that when you're calculating the volume for dosing, you calculate based on your actual water volume, not the aquarium label. Usually a 60 gallon aquarium holds just over 59 gallons bare, and less by the time you add substrate, rocks, etc.

I do have another question for you though: Which fish were added recently? Usually Ich only comes in on a new fish. There could be other infections, etc going on that are not as visible as ich. It's not uncommon to lose fish right after a new introduction since they bring in new bacteria, viruses, etc.

As for your questions:
1: If you're worried about stressing the fish, then you should probably just lower the temp down a bit and then treat for a longer period. I've had success treating Ich at 75 degrees, it just takes a bit longer, and Ich takes a while before it severely weakens the fish. It also reduces the potential toxicity of the Malachite green in the RidIch. I know people swear by it, but I prefer coppersafe since there are fewer potential complications and for most fish, the risk of overdose is lower. (it's right out if you have inverts though, the copper in coppersafe will kill them)

2: At this point, any occupants of the tank are potentially infected so quarantine wouldn't work. The best defense is to continue the treatment

3: What type of filter are you using? You generally don't need to replace your filters since the treatment would have killed any Ich that happened to be caught in them. Additionally, you don't want to replace all of your filtration at once since that's where the bacteria that keep your tank cycled are living.

4: Your plants are probably fine at this point, although the moss ball may not be liking the malachite green. I generally recommend pulling your plants from the aquarium and keeping them in a bowl of clean water during treatment. Remember that Ich cannot survive without a host, so after about two weeks or so, you should be able to reintroduce them to the tank with no new Ich. Since the moss ball is behaving poorly, I would recommend at least doing this for it.

5: I'd go with the last one. The diswasher treatment really isn't necessary for most Illnesses, and again, if the whole tank is being treated for Ich, then it won't survive on the decor.

6: Unless you have access to a microbiology lab (and even then you might miss it if it's there), the only test is to watch and see if the Ich returns.

On a note for future prevention (and you may have figured this out already), quarantine is the only way to ensure that you're not going to have this problem again. If you're primarily bringing in smaller fish, then a 5 gallon quarantine tank along with a small heater and sponge filter are easily stored in the stand under the aquarium and can be set up ahead of time to receive any new inhabitants. Two weeks is a pretty standard quarantine time, while some people insist on a month. A side benefit is that if there are any issues, you are treating a much smaller water volume and will spend less on medications. It's also easier to do a 50% water change daily on a 5 gallon bare bottomed QT tank than it is to treat and maintain a 60 gallon with plants, rocks, sand, etc.
 
Thanks for all of that info! Very helpful. The nitrite spike may have been because the neons died overnight and I didn't notice and fish them out until the morning. I tested that morning before the next water change. Yes, we had added new fish (from Petsmart) and we think that's how we got the ich. We are so taking your advice about the quarantine tank. Our store didn't have any 5g, so we got a 10g and we are starting the cycle right away so it will be ready in the future. I added the stress-zyme because I thought I should use it to replace the bacteria we were killing with the rid-ich+? Ooops!

The good news is that we haven't lost any more fish. We did a 50% water change last night before we dosed with the rid ich and that seemed to help at least 1 of the loaches quite the a bit. We plan to do another one tonight before dosing.

Great tip on the overdosing with malachite green - I bet we were doing that. We'll be careful with the next dose. I think you also asked about the filter - we have a hang-on back filter with capacity for a much larger tank. It's a marineland power filter emperor 400 with capacity for 90g. We had a charcoal in there (but removed it before treatment) so maybe we'll just replace that one - and leave the others.

Thanks again for your help!
 
I've used Rid-Ich+ before--it took about 10 days of treatment. I treated until there were no visible spots, and then continued for an additional 4 days after that.

I had a horrible battle with ammonia toward the end of my treatment period. From what others told me, Rid-Ich+ does not harm the biological filter, and I lost no fish, so at first I was very confused about the source of the ammonia.

Finally I realized that the ammonia spike was caused by the decomposition of numerous invertebrates in the tank that the Rid-Ich+ had killed. This was back when my tank maintenance skilz weren't up to speed, and I had a huge colony of scuds living in my gravel, not to mention snails. The Rid-Ich+ killed off all of these. Your tank is probably way cleaner than mine was back then, but I thought I'd mention it just in case. If you've got any little copepods or whatnot in your tank, you may want to vacuum the gravel especially well to get rid of their bodies.
 
Malachite green should def be used in half doses when dealing with tetra's, so maybe try the salt and heat treatment next time? Its much safer/less stressful/ doesn't kill bacterial colony (for the most part)/etc much natural treatment. I understand with the fish loss though you don't want to take any chances and jumped right to the meds which is fine. I'm not sure which will be worse to your plants though salt or meds..?

Oh and your marineland has bio-wheels if I'm correct, so you should be fine with switching out any media. And FYI any ammoinia OR nitrite levels suppress the immune system of the fish leaving them much more vulnerable to disease. So with a spike in either I would do a 50% water change. Some people say thats too much, but thats my WC weekly anyway, and I treat my tap water to equalize pH and GH so the water is stabilized.

Overall though IMO I say the spike of ammonia/nitrite in combination with the full dose of malachite green was too much for the tetra's.
 
Sad news - even though we did a 50% water change last night before meds, we lost a loach and a danio this morning. One more day of treatment is scheduled. Just did a 25% water change in hopes that we can keep with other loach alive.

We don't have any snails or other invertebrates in our tank. We had some snails a while ago but the loaches ate them all. I did water testing this morning when we found the bodies but things weren't that out of whack: Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 7.5. I guess they were just too weak from the earlier full med doses and so they couldn't take last night's dose.
 
Sorry to hear that... good luck with the rest of treatment and keeping the rest of the fish alive and well..

your probably right the meds were just too much..maybe try salt/heat next time for ich...

and this stuck out at me

"I think we've got 3-4 more doses of Rid Ich+ to go, based on advice I've gotten in the chat room, the instructions on the bottle and things I've seen in articles online. "

No matter what anyone says, never increase the dosage of medication and/or mix with other meds unless its been tried and proven. and even then each individual case is different and any tampering with dosages is always dangerous.

And increase air in the water with med and water temp increase, both either affect the metabolism or the ability for the fish to uptake oxyegen and/or the amount of oxygen in the water, further stressing the fish.

-Good luck, and keep posting the updates!
 
Thanks. So, although it looks like the ich is gone, but the day after the last treatment we lost the last loach. And one of the rasporas. Sucks. My cocker spaniel is devasted (he loved watching the loaches). In the future we'll try something else if we end up with the ich. But I am seriously using the qt tank in the future.
 
I just went through the same thing with Ich about two months ago, I had treated for it before but the strain they got wiped my fish out rapidly, within three days of noticing the first spot nearly everyone in the tank was dead.

Something I have found important when treating ich, or any disease is lots and lots of water changes.
After the major losses I did 50% water changes daily, refilling slowly to not shock the fish and adding medicine back in to keep it at the proper level. Once I started doing that no one else died.

Fresh water is always a good thing, and by sucking it out you are also taking out whatever pathogen/parasite is in the tank.
 
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