Infected tank?

[Jack Jericho]

Alright, so I have 10 gallon semi planted tank, Which up until recently housed a couple of inch and half long Fancy GF. One a fantail and the other an oranda. anyways, disease, parasites or chemical contamination killed both of them off, I'm not sure what killed them because I could never match up the symptoms with anything I could find. very sad, little buggers were adorable...
Anyways, I've got plans for my next tank buuut I'm not sure where to go from here. I don't wanna put some fish in this tank and watch them die like my Goldfish. So I guess my real question is how should I proceed? I'm pretty new to this hobby so I'm a little lost. Do I need to somehow disinfect everything in the tank? what about the plants?

It also occurred to me that if I just kept doing water changes as if there were still fish, that would eventually dissipate any chemicals and/or any parasites would die without hosts? possibility?

Like I said, I'm a bit of newbie, help?

 

[Lupin]

:welcome: to AC, Jericho!

I am glad you chose the right site to ask your queries. Feel free to ask away if you have plenty more questions.

Okay, to begin with the process, could you please tell us which treatments you used? What symptoms did you observe in your fish? Firstly, a lot of treatments can create a more potent reaction if combined unnecessarily and incessantly. There are unusual behavioral signs of fish that can be corrected without having to use medicines and such. Water changes for instance can correct the possible red streaks that appear on the fins as the bloody streaks are a sign of ammonia and nitrite intoxication.

A 10g unfortunately works only as a quarantine or hospital tank rather than a proper housing for goldfish. With fancy goldfish, a general guideline would be 15g per fish and that includes your fantail and oranda which means a 30g would be your bare minimum. Pond types such as shubunkins, comets and common goldfish require at least 20g per fish as these ones generally are feistier, larger and require more space to swim around. The fancy ones can reach at least 8-10 inches depending on the water conditions provided for them. Your fantail and oranda would surely reach 7-8 inches in time if they were housed in at least 55g with plenty of feedings and water changes.

My question for now is, are you still willing to continue with goldfish or do you wish to proceed to other species as you move on? You know you still can keep goldfish properly if you take the steps accordingly and correctly. Do you have a test kit? Do you know the water parameters of your tank when your goldies succumbed at that time? If not, you really need a test kit particularly the liquid based ones by API due to their reliability and accuracy. Test strips are grossly inaccurate and should be avoided at all costs. You could invest in API liquid master test kit at $20-40 range. It will last you a year and it will give you assurance your water conditions are safe for the fish.

Unless we know what exactly happened to the goldfish, disinfecting the tank may be unnecessary for all we know. If you insist however, you could try 10% bleach solution and be sure to wash the tank thoroughly before setting it back up again. As for the plants, you could use potassium permanganate to disinfect the plants.

As for water changes and chemicals dissipating, it depends on the treatments you used. Copper based meds will not dissipate and will remain in the tank for a long time. If you used copper based meds, your tank will be unable to house any invertebrate permanently. There are dye based meds such as malachite green that will stain your aquarium silicon sealant and remain there for a long time however there is no long lasting harm done in this case.

 

[Flaringshutter]

EDIT: Looks like Lupin got here first! Well, I second his remarks and add:

Hey Jack,
Welcome to AC! :welcome:
We're glad to have you. I'm sad to hear that your original goldfish didn't make it. It sounds like you started out the way most of us start out - with too many fish in too small of a tank.
Goldfish are very hardy fish, and extremely easy to care for. They have simple needs, but like all aquarium fish, there are some very critical factors that can make or break a healthy tank.
First, goldfish need lots of room. This is the most important part. Fancy goldfish can grow 8-12 inches long and need at least a 20 gallon tank for one, plus 10 gallons more for each additional fish. Common or comet goldfish (the single-tailed types) require even more space, with a 55 gallon for one and 10-15 gallons for each additional fish. Although most goldfish in pet stores are no larger than 3 or 4 inches, common and comet goldfish can reach 18-20 inches long. Many people new to goldfish think that they only grow to the size of their tank. Actually, a goldfish kept in a tiny tank will produce hormones that will slow its own growth, plus the buildup of toxic chemicals in the small tank will sicken it and can cause stunting. This condition causes organ failure, chronic illness and dramatically shortens lifespan.
It sounds like your fish suffered from a tank that was just too small. Small tanks in general are much harder to take care of than larger tanks, simply because it's harder to balance a small ecosystem. With more water, you have more room for error, and small problems or mistakes aren't a disaster.

Once you have the right size tank for goldfish, they need a powerful filter. Goldfish have a pretty crude digestive system. They have no true stomach - the intestine just behind their mouths can expand to hold food sort of like a stomach, but they don't have the acids to break down their food and fully digest it. So they produce a lot of waste. It's important to filter the tank properly and perform regular water changes to remove the waste chemicals. Many of us use the rule of thumb - for goldfish, use a filter rated for a tank twice as large as the one you have.

If you have the option to start with a big tank, you're much more likely to be successful with goldfish. They're social creatures, so two to four fancies in a 50 gallon, or two to four comets in a 80 or 100 gallon would be ideal setups. Large tanks are easy to find on our sister site, Monsterfishkeepers, in the classifieds section. You can also try craigslist or your local classifieds. Tanks big enough for goldfish can be expensive if you buy them new, but gently used tanks are very reasonable.

As for your 10 gallon tank, shrimp, snails or small fish like guppies would do very well in that setup. If you have used copper-based chemicals on the tank in the past, snails or shrimp will be poisoned by the residue. But a small group of fish would be very happy. Beyond that, you should not need to disinfect the tank at all. Just start with new water and clean the filter. Be sure to add new carbon to remove any residual medications or chemicals, and you're set.

Best of luck! Let us know if you have any questions. We're here to help.

 

[Jack Jericho]

wow

Thanks both of you, I definitely wasn't expecting answers consisting of more than a couple sentences. : D

First I just wanna clear one thing, I am a newbie, but I did do my research (at least for a newbie XD) I was actually in the process of saving for a bigger tank when all of this happened. Unfortunately not getting a water testing kit was the one major mistake I made. (one I plan on fixing as soon as possible. As for treatments, I never actually used medicine simply because I couldn't figure out what was wrong with them and I didn't like the idea of just pouring random chemicals into my tank. The only thing I ever did other than extra water changes was I added some salt, which I had read was harmless to goldfish but could deal with quite a few diseases and parasites. It didn't seem to make much of a difference, but I was also a little late as my fantail died a day later.

Right, the symptoms. at first it seemed pretty harmless, my fantail started laying down in the corner in the tank at night, I just figured it was his new way of sleeping or something. But then it got worse, he started spending more and more time in that same spot, just laying there, rightside up, completely motionless except for breathing. after a couple of days it got to the point where he just spent all day like that, the oranda started doing the same thing after not too long. they would both just lay there the whole day. Though they did still swim about excitedly whenever I fed them. in the last few days of their lives I noticed they would flash around everyonce and awhile, then go back to laying (though this was pretty rare)

then, something they both did seperately about a day before they just stopped breathing, was they would lay sideways, arched upwards in a semi circle..

Once the Oranda was dead I noticed some missing scales, but beyond that I didn't see any other symptoms..

the only other clues I have is that this behavior started right around when I introduced some hornwort and a couple of ghost shrimp. I figured maybe a parasite came in with the shrimp? Oh, and one other thing I only noticed in the last couple of days, there was a soft chunk up metal the petstore had used to hold the hornwort together and weigh it down. I removed it and did a water change, but it may have been too late. Could that have leeched metals/chemicals into the tank and caused this?

Oh, and in answer to what Lupin asked; No. I love fancies but I decided if I ever continued with them I would do several things different which are a little beyond the scale of my life at the moment. No 1. Huge tank, or indoor pond : ) No 2. buy from a reputable breeder, since it occurred to me that petco probably doesn't have the best specimens . Actually my plan for this tank is to plant in more heavily, add a heater and some shrimp and a little school of tetras.

Thanks again guys : )

any further thoughts?

 

[Lupin]

Hi Jack,

I am glad you answered fully well and honestly all the queries that Iris and I have asked. This makes it easier for us to point out the possible problems that may be corrected as much as possible.

Firstly, I understand your failure to buy a test kit and I am glad you plan to add this in your shopping list. It's a very invaluable tool that most of us tend to overlook its importance. Don't worry about it. It happened even to us when we were venturing in the hobby as well. I've already recommended the test kit brand earlier so we have that covered now.

Secondly, I am glad you avoided the temptation to mix the chemicals or dose anything even in your tank. Mixing chemicals, regardless of whether herbal or not, still can make potent results. Most treatments can kill your fish faster than the parasites could. Even in our panic stricken situations, we would end up dumping the meds as we think this would be an easy and fast solution to our problems which hopefully, you did not.

Water changes certainly help but in most cases, water changes will help only to an extent (and in severe disease outbreaks, it will not) but nothing is still better than the clean water quality maintained through lots of water changes as part of the basic maintenance regimen needed for healthy fish.

Have you read about cycling yet? If not, I recommend reading this thread. Plenty of options and details are available there to help you know what cycling is all about.

Here's a chart of the nitrogen cycle obtained from another forum but it certainly helps give you a better understanding of what nitrogen cycle is.


Since you did not have a test kit at that time your goldfish died, we can assume that the ammonia and nitrite have actually elevated steadily. Listlessness, gasping for breath at the surface, clamped fins, black spots or peppering on the body, bloodshot fins and lack of will to swim in a balanced motion, are all signs of ammonia and nitrite intoxication.

In case of flashing, it could be flukes, external parasites or silt irritation. There are many causes of flashing and it is extremely difficult to distinguish the exact cause. To be more certain with flukes, a gill or body scrape is needed to be sure the problem lies in flukes. Usually, with fluke infestations, some fish scrape continuously the same body part on a frequent basis which is a very unusual behavior on the part of the fish. Praziquantel can help solve this problem but like I said, there is no certainty if flukes are indeed involved. The same can be said with external parasites. Most external parasites are quite resilent and cannot be deflected by most treatments available in the trade. With silt irritation, when the small particles of the substrate (gravel or sand) gets trapped in the gill tissues, it is likely to irritate the fish and hinder its ability to breathe well. What substrate do you use?

There is another point that I missed earlier and I apologize for that. Do you use dechlorinators? In the last few years, a lot of water companies include chlorine and chloramine in the tap. Both substances are quite harmful to the fish. Although chlorine is a gas and therefore can dissipate in hours when the water is aerated, chloramine is another issue. As this is not a gas, the only fast way to deflect its toxic effects, is by using dechlorinator that covers both the chlorine and chloramine for good measure. Prime is one of the brands that you can use to bind both substances into harmless form.

In regards to the issue about the metal strip on the plants, it is a lead strip and should not pose too much issues in the aquarium. However, it should always be removed when you buy your plants as lead strips bruise the bottom part of the plants thus causing the plant to wither if it is not removed immediately. Always plant the plants individually. Avoid planting them in clusters as the bottom part needs to be penetrated by light or it will rot and the plant falls apart eventually.

In response to the last paragraph, I understand completely what you mean. Considering the 10g itself is too small to handle any goldfish at all, yes, a planted tank with shrimps and tetras is the best choice there is. If space and money are not an issue to an extent however, you may try Craiglist and look for bargains for a tank ranging from 30 to 55 gallons if you want to try goldfish again.

Good luck! If you have any more questions, always ask.

 

[Kashta]

Welcome to the site, Jack!

:welcome:

 

[Jack Jericho]

Thanks guys!
I have a much better Idea of how to move forward now, and I'm actually liking this place so I think I'll stick around

 

[Flaringshutter]

Glad to hear you plan on becoming a regular around here, Jack!

I agree with Lupin - flashing and especially lethargy are classic signs of a fluke infestation. If you have access to a microscope you can do a scrape of the slime coat and check to be sure, but those symptoms are pretty spot on. Flukes can come in with any new addition, but many goldfish get them at the commercial breeder's where they are born, and have a low-level infestation for many years. Eventually something will happen to weaken their immune system and the infestation will explode, causing them to suddenly show symptoms.
Praziquantel is by far the best treatment for flukes, in my opinion. It is very gentle on your fish and doesn't cause harmful side effects, but extremely effective against the flukes. It is one of the more expensive meds, so it's best to buy it in small quantities. You may need to treat them for an extended period - two weeks or more - but since the med is so gentle that's not a health risk for the fish. Additionally, prazi won't harm the bacteria in your filter. The powder, rather than the liquid form, is the safest.
Best of luck with them!

 

[Jack Jericho]

Well the Goldfish died before I even found this forum. Thanks for the advice though, I'll write that down somewhere so I know what to do if this ever happens again.
So if it was flukes, do I need to treat the tank so my next batch of fish isn't infected? or did the die off with the Goldfish?

Thanks again.

 

[Lupin]

I would quarantine the new arrivals assuming your tank has some fish left currently and treat with praziquantel just to be safe. (Goodness knows I cannot keep track of some things here anymore having been absent for a day and then missing out what I am supposed to do and trying to catch up right now.) If you observe unusual behavior for four weeks such as flashing, you could be sure it is flukes especially when they continue scraping the same body parts. Flukes are a common occurrence with goldfish but it can be tricky to find out if flukes are spot on in certain situations hence the scraping method.