Lighting affecting betta temperament?

[ike2112]

I'm new to fishkeeping, but took the time to read up loads beforehand for buying a tank and fish for my boy and taking advice from the store - advice I have come to distrust...

I have 7 neon tetra and a betta. Not sure what type of betta, its blue with black/white markings on the fins.
I have a 23 litre tank.
5 tetra have been in there a month nearly, the other 2 tetra and betta arrived today.

Yes I know, from reading on here that seems too small a tank. But the store suggested even more than this would live just fine in there.
They have neons packed in the store next to betta, no issues, like they have about 50 in a 40 litre tank. I was going to just take the betta from that tank but was talked into taking one that had been in isolation in a tiny box.

We had 6 neon first, one died like 2wk ago randomly, then I got 2 more neons and the betta. Day 1 was fine, I released them into tank this morning and all ok all day.
Now though at night the betta is chasing the neons, I'm sure trying to take a nip at them.

My tank is on a bookshelf away from window so I have a tube light to replicate 'tropical day light' according to packaging and a blue led spotlight type thing slightly submerged that gives ambient 'moonlight' effect for them at night.

I noticed before that the blue light seemed to make the neons space out a bit, they stop schooling and just slowly meander. Now though it seems this light, or the neon behaviour, is triggering the betta into attack mode.
So far they seem to be too slow to catch the neons, but then they have to sleep sometime...
I am now really concerned about putting the light out completely as I tended to do once I noticed the neons behaviour last week.

I'm not sure exactly what to do now. I know from reading up that probably the store was wrong to tell me to keep these fish together in this tank. But I don't have many options now, and it seems that in the brighter light there was no issue.
Could this just be a settling in phase?
Should I just keep the lights on the whole time or will that affect their well being?

Any advice appreciated

 

[fishorama]

Well, it's a matter of size IME. We (back in the olden days) kept a betta in a 10g & bought tiny (feeder size) neons (1/8-1/4 inch). The betta would hunt & eat the neons until they grew big enough to not be bite size.

What kind of plants (real or fake) or other décor do you have? A pic would help. I think it's less of a lighting problem than a big fish eat small fish thing. How long is each stage of lighting on for?

Lights should not be on more than 8 hours (maybe 1 or 2 more w/"moon lights"). All fish need some night time to rest.

 

[ike2112]

Well, it's a matter of size IME. We (back in the olden days) kept a betta in a 10g & bought tiny (feeder size) neons (1/8-1/4 inch). The betta would hunt & eat the neons until they grew big enough to not be bite size.

What kind of plants (real or fake) or other décor do you have? A pic would help. I think it's less of a lighting problem than a big fish eat small fish thing. How long is each stage of lighting on for?

Lights should not be on more than 8 hours (maybe 1 or 2 more w/"moon lights"). All fish need some night time to rest.

Plants are all fake, plastic I think (again I was handed these by pet store, I know now that ideall they should be silk to avoid harm - I just don't know if changing them now will stress the fish).

The day light, I turn it off around 8pm and then I had been leaving the blue on all night for the first couple weeks. Then I noticed the neons seemed lethargic, so last week + I have been turning all lights off for a period overnight.
The pet store said they turn off all lights at night so I started basically doing:
8am - 8pm = tube light, tropical daylight
8pm - midnight = blue led
Midnight - 8am = no light

The neons seemed happier with this, they had been great.

The betta, not so much. They weren't showing any aggression at all during daylight, just in the night once it was blue light - I am so paranoid I was literally sat in front of this tank for 16 hours.

Eventually last night, Betta went to sleep tucked down the side of the filter (I am now also worried the filter is too strong - it came with tank as a starter kit but again I can see from others experiences that this doesn't necessarily mean its a filter appropriate for that size of tank). So I left blue light on and went to bed myself, this morning all 7 neons survived so that's a start...

I might have to see if I can return the betta if this continues. Although that would be a task in itself!

Pic attached - note I was just in process of adjusting thermometer cable, it is usually angled at about 35 degrees.

 

[ike2112]

It does seem like the neons are too fast for the Betta, but I guess there's a good chance he'll catch them eventually.
If they are being aggressive now is there a chance they'll grow out of it if it continues to be futile? Or if they are attacking now is it just in their nature and will continue until they are the lone survivor?

 

[Tifftastic]

You're only giving your fish 8 hours of lights off, I would suggest running the blue light less. The blue light is basically just for night time viewing. You can get a cheap timer and have your blue light come on in the morning for an hour before the main light comes on, then have the blue light on for an hour after the main light goes off. This will help reduce the stress of just a blast of full day light and give it a bit more of a gradual effect, but still keep it so that you don't have more than 12 hours of light. A 12:12 day night cycle is probably the absolute most amount of light you'll want to give your fish, they need the full dark to be able to sleep and circadian rhythms are really important to normal behaviour and growth as well as health. However, there is benefit to having only 8 hours of light in the form of algae reduction. I would suggest cutting the lighting period down.

Additionally, I think more hiding spots will help. The fish don't really have much of a place to get away from the betta. If you replaced some of the smaller fake plants with taller ones that were more bushy you'll provide more hiding spots. Bettas can actually do well with other smaller fish, but it does depend on the individual as some are more feisty than others. Additionally, I think in this case tank size might be part of the problem. If your tank were a bit bigger, for example a 10 gallon (45 litre) tank has almost double the floor space and will allow the fish their own territories and more hiding spaces. I think you'll find much more harmony in your tank if you are able to upgrade.

I would suggest in the size tank you have:
1) adjust the lighting schedule
2) provide more hiding spaces
3) stick with either neons or bettas

However, a better suggestion would be to upgrade the tank size.

 

[ike2112]

You're only giving your fish 8 hours of lights off, I would suggest running the blue light less. The blue light is basically just for night time viewing. You can get a cheap timer and have your blue light come on in the morning for an hour before the main light comes on, then have the blue light on for an hour after the main light goes off. This will help reduce the stress of just a blast of full day light and give it a bit more of a gradual effect, but still keep it so that you don't have more than 12 hours of light. A 12:12 day night cycle is probably the absolute most amount of light you'll want to give your fish, they need the full dark to be able to sleep and circadian rhythms are really important to normal behaviour and growth as well as health. However, there is benefit to having only 8 hours of light in the form of algae reduction. I would suggest cutting the lighting period down.

Additionally, I think more hiding spots will help. The fish don't really have much of a place to get away from the betta. If you replaced some of the smaller fake plants with taller ones that were more bushy you'll provide more hiding spots. Bettas can actually do well with other smaller fish, but it does depend on the individual as some are more feisty than others. Additionally, I think in this case tank size might be part of the problem. If your tank were a bit bigger, for example a 10 gallon (45 litre) tank has almost double the floor space and will allow the fish their own territories and more hiding spaces. I think you'll find much more harmony in your tank if you are able to upgrade.

I would suggest in the size tank you have:
1) adjust the lighting schedule
2) provide more hiding spaces
3) stick with either neons or bettas

However, a better suggestion would be to upgrade the tank size.

Thank you for your advice.

Can I ask though, I can change their own lights and use timers for a schedule, but what about the light within the room itself? I mean, even if their tank lights are out, if we have the Xmas tree lights on and the Tv on (both are at other end of the room, about 6-7m away) then there'll still be light in the room.

Plus I have a 15 month old son, he's up by about 7am so if its dark outside we need the main room light on - so even if the fish were in a time when their lights were off, there would actually be light. Do I need to avoid this? Do I need to look at considering a cover even?

I am looking at whether we can fit a larger tank. The weight is a concern for the shelf size.
Looking now at a 'Love Fish Panorama 40ltr' which actually says in description is ideal for a betta, 4 neons, oco catfish and a shrimp. So more or less what we were told to put in the 19ltr (and we were told you need at least 6 neons to keep them happy).

 

[Tifftastic]

The ambient light in the room should not be a problem. It will be mild enough so as to no cause any interference with the day night cycle and might actually be better as the fish will get a small amount of light before and after the main lights similar to twilight. It's really the direct light that is important to monitor.

The last time I had a tank (preparing to ask landlord soon if I can finally have one again), I was often up at 7, the room full light by 5 AM in the summer and 8:30 in the winter. Then I was often up til midnight with the living room light or TV light on. I never had any problems with that ambient lighting.

 

[ike2112]

Thanks for your help,

Have it set up so its roughly 12/12 with a bit of blue light either side of the main light.

That's been 4 days now and all neons are still intact. The betta still harasses them time to time but just isn't quick enough to get a nibble from what I've seen.
That 40ltr tank isn't going to fit but still looking for something bigger, even 50% extra.

If I get a larger tank, is live plants also better for fish getting on together?
I'm also conscious if I get a new tank it'll take time to cycle it.

 

[Tifftastic]

I would suggest 10:14 with a bit of blue on either side would be a better option. Or even a little less as you don't have live plants.

Live plants will provide the same type of hiding spaces as plastic, however they will have the benefit of removing some of the nitrates, which can help with stocking levels.

As far as cycling a new tank, simply moving the filter from this tank to the new one and running both filters at the same time will jump start the cycle and allow you to transfer your fish directly.