Lionhead goldfish

[reptileguy2727]

You are right, we should not say anything so that when someone new comes in and sees this breeder keeping too many too big fish in too small of a tank he thinks, 'he's a breeder, that must be the best way to do things.' We are explainign our concerns, one of the best things about a forum.

When in a family, the dog is part of a pack, the rest of the family. This is why that dog tied up in the back yard really is suffering more than you can see. One documentary I saw specifically cited how cats are much more social than we thought, many females living with one another, even helping each other raise their young, all with a simgle male protecting the territory. All the horse farms I see have a lot together on large plots of land, those short of this are cruelty to animals.

What's wrong with PETA?

 

[Kyohti]

The point is, he made it clear that he has large ponds they stay half of the year in and also that he does the best that he can with what he has. But people are continuing to harass him over his practices.

People who are new to his hobby aren't as stupid as you think. Misinformed, perhaps, but not always plain dumb and rarely intentionally cruel to their pets. But the attitude around here when people present a problem, such as having a goldfish in a 10-gallon tank that has a parasite or something, is to bash them brutally about their fish-keeping habits FIRST, then offer help about the illness. Maybe they even knew already that the tank was too small and are saving up for something bigger, but no one asks. They just assume the person is an ignorant, fish-hurting moron.

They don' make suggestions. They assault them with every miniscule thing they have done and are doing wrong and then demand that they atone for their sins, spend all the money in their pockets, and remedy the situation IMMEDIATELY no matter what the cost. Even if they don't mean it that way, 75% of the advice around here ends up SOUNDING like it.

The whole point of a hobby-based forum, especially one involving animals, is to share care and maintenance information with new people, celebrate the new discoveries, share information, and have the opportunity to be around others who share your joy in the hobby. It's not to scare or nag new people into not sharing their problems or not telling the whole truth about their problems and therefor not getting truly accurate advice.

I have received many PMs from people here who aren't comfortable talking about their problems because the way they keep their fish (which isn't bad, just different or I would've advised them otherwise myself). And that, to me, is terribly depressing. This place is a wonderful font of information... but the fact that people who are less than expert fishkeepers (and even a few people who have years and years of good experience) have their intelligence insulted before they can get any understanding from anyone is awful.

And to DojoQueen, I apologize for ranting in your topic, but sometimes I can hardly stand how people treat their fellow fish-lovers here.

 

[reptileguy2727]

Then...
1: Make posts in threads that involve exactly what you are talking to remedy this problem. If 10 people bashed me but one offered good help, I would be satisfied.
2: If you notice that one member is consistantly doing exactly what you are talking about, bring it to the attention of the moderators and other admin so they can deal with.

I don't know about anyone else, but I would not want to live in jail half the year. If it is not good it is not good, regardless. Unless it is a VERY temporary thing, like when I kept 2 lionheads in a 10 for a couple weeks while I was prepping the 55 for them, It should not be done. If I can't keep a certain fish I don't buy one. If things change and I can no longer care for it, I sell it or find a home for it. One of the most important things in this hobby is to do the best you reasonably can, and if that is not good enough, be willing to part with them to ensure they do not endure any unnecessary suffering. Whether or not the specific fish in question are being improperly cared for, the point is that it is an example of a breeder, and breeders are generally regarded as experts. So for an expert to show an example such as this is not good in my opinion.

Many beginners have no idea what they are doing. They won a goldfish at the fair, or their child just had to have this tetra and they still had that 5.5 gallon in the garage somewhere, so why not. After all, they still sell goldfish bowls, so I would never argue that people are not clueless or careless. This is a forum so the people here have a better sense of obligation to their animals, but there are still people on here who are looking for the very beginning of an understanding of the hobby.

 

[Kyohti]

And you think they should be thrashed thoroughly first and treated like imbeciles first? I don't consider myself inexperienced, but when I see how some people are talked to and some of the suggestions and demands that are made here, it even made me feel dumb. But I got over myself and thought that if I did everything those people told me to do, I'd be broke and miserable and not enjoying myself at all. I'd end up hating my fish and hating the hobby and selling it all off.

Yes, any pet owner should do the responsible thing... but he says he has large healthy goldfish. Those fish have probably spent their winters as he's described it ever since they were small. So if they've grown so well and would've died outside in the cold if he left them out there, I simply fail to see where he's going so wrong. To me, results are results.

For instance, I kept and bred bettas for two years. Not for profit, but for the learning experience. In that time and all the time I kept bettas, I housed them in 3x3x8 lidded acrylic cubes. My room temps never dropped below 75 degrees (I kept an outdoor thermometer in my room to check) and though I was uncomforable, they were fine. I did my water changes and fed them a varied and protein-rich diet. Every last one of them was big, colorful, and full of vitality. Almost all of them lived to their full life-spans (4-5 years) in my care. I involved myself with them daily. I provided them with exercise, attention, and the best care I could. I would've given them larger containers but I moved frequently as a teen because of my family, so they had to be portable. But I hear people bemoaning others for keeping their bettas in unfiltered bowls. That they are only 'happy' in 5-10 gallon setups with lights, heat, filters, and some even insist on aeration and live plants and other fish 'so they won't be lonely'. That's horse-hockey. 10 years of successful betta-keeping and spending hours with them or reading about them should mean something... and though it's NICE to give them these ammenities, it's not NECESSARY.

And perhaps a few weeks or months temporarily in a smaller tank, then being released into a very spacious set of ponds isn't the best arrangement, but is it honest to god necessary for a 4-6 inch goldfish to never spend even a month in a space smaller than 100 gallon tank? For pete's sake... should we all just run out and 'liberate' all goldfish into the nearest heated, aerated, filtered, perfect-all-year-long LAKE in order to ensure they will forever be fat and contented and never subjected to any measure of stress or inconvenience???

There's pet-keeping... there's pet hobbyists... and there's fanatics. And while you may not mind being harassed or insulted in order to get the information you need, other people aren't quite so 'tough-as-nails'. Fault them if you must... not everyone knows everything... but if people wouldn't be so beligerent, more INFORMATION would be shared around here. **** someone off and they won't WANT to listen to a thing you say (which ends up poorly for their pet)... but TALK to them and offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, and you'll get a heck of a lot more cooperation which benefits everyone.

 

[reptileguy2727]

I don't remember anyone insisting on a 100 gallon tank for some fancy goldfish. One alternative is a big rubbermaid tub. $30 and they get much more space.

I am not tearing him a new one. I simply feel that his method should not be repeated because it sets a bad example. That does not mean I think he should buy an indoor pool for them, just that his method is not good enough to be used as an example of proper goldfish keeping.

I think you are coming across just as bad as those you are arguing against. You may feel justified, but you are coming across just as bad to me and probably others as well.

I agree. People need to ask questions, then explain why that method is not ideal for the fish. Explain what is ideal and why, then work with the person to reach a satisfcatory and reasonable solution on a case by case basis.