Lowering pH - Strange Problem

you can use peat moss to lower your ph and make the water softer. youll be surprised how much the color of a fish changes when theyre in their preferred ph range. rams, apistos, rasbora, and tetras prefers low pH. i keep mine at 6.2 with peat moss in my filter, change it every two month.
 
misopeenut said:
you can use peat moss to lower your ph and make the water softer. youll be surprised how much the color of a fish changes when theyre in their preferred ph range. rams, apistos, rasbora, and tetras prefers low pH. i keep mine at 6.2 with peat moss in my filter, change it every two month.


Do you have much trouble keeping it stable?
 
Yes, the sand is from Grand Bahama Island. I didn't think that it would have that drastic of an effect (from 6.0 to 7.6 is 160 times more basic!).

Maybe so, but 7.6-7.8 is roughly where Calcium carbonate will quit dissolveing. So if you have calcium carbonate substrate, you will have a pH somewhere in the 7.6-8.0 range depending on other factors. This will also give you a KH in the 3-6 dKH range (54-107 mg/L) Which is a good place to have KH so you don't have to worry about crashes.
Dave
 
The last reply was a bit short as I had to leave quickly. Better explanations may help.

NAtural environments are difficult if not impossible to match in our enclosed tank systems. Water exchange, and fish per gallon ratio's are extremely different. The only real way to come close is to do massive daily water changes, or design a system that constantly changes water for you.

So the real truth about pH in an enclosed system.

As a general rule, pH and KH are directly correlated. If you alter one it will alter the other. So the only real way to lower pH is to remove KH. This is not a wise move in reality.

KH is the buffer in our tanks against rapid pH swings and deep dips. Our BActeria consume KH and essentially produce acid. So if we lower KH to begin with, and our bacteria begin consuming what is left we see pH drops (Sometimes quite rapid) and instability in the tank. So we need KH. My personal reccomendation is 2-3 dKH (1 Degree = 17.9 mg/L) and if you maintain KH at that level you will see a pH of about 7.4-7.8 depending on CO2 levels. Co2 is about the only thing that can change the pH/ KH correlation. This correlation is strong enough that we can actually calculate Co2 levels in our tanks by comparing KH to pH normal atmospheric co2 levels fall somewhere between 2 and 4 ppm depending on height above sea level and a few other factors.

If you maintain a lower Kh level you stand at risk for Kh depletion and the pH swings that it creates.

Now, the pH myth with Fish. First of all I'll just say that fish are adaptable, and can be acclimated to and kept hapily in just about any water within normal hardness ranges. Most softwater fish prefer low levels of dissolved solids. In natural waters the two predominant elements are Ca and Mg. Since natural calcium is mostly found in the form of CaCo3 (Calcium Carbonate) the genral accepted rule is that hard water has a high pH. Dissolve calcium carnbonate and you get an elevated GH as well as Kh and thus the pH rises.

In municiple water sources, these rules are often manipulated quite a bit. Additionally as a hobbyist you can manipulate them (If you really want to) So if you wanted ultra soft water for angels and Tetra's , You could start with a pure water source (RO or DI) and then add something such as Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking soda) to get a Kh of 3 dKh. This would give you very little dissolved solids, ultra soft water, and a pH of about 7.6. It would also give you a very stable soft water tank. I suspect that one could breed discus in water set up that way, but have not proven it yet. I know Tetra's will breed in some fairly hard water if other conditions are met.

So in a nutshell, Don't chase the mythical pH number of the wild amazon. Acclimate your fish to the tap water for ease, and if you want to breed fish (And they won't breed in your tap water) then get a good grasp on the chemistry, and create a stable soft water tank (Which will still have a pH high above the norm)

Discus Breeders who maintain Ultra soft water (Typically through the use of RO) also do massive daily water changes to ensure stability. If you deplete KH the only way to keep things stable is through constant removal of waste before the biological processes get too large. Most hobbyists do not need to or want to maintain tanks in this fashion.

Peat and driftwood Essentially soften water naturally by Leaching tannic acid which consumes (Not sure if that is the technically correct way to say it) Caclium Magnesium and carbonate. So if we use Peat or driftwood to soften our water, we are removing Kh and basically accellerating the process that leads to crashes and instability. With the correct mix of things, and a good maintenance routine, this works for some folks. but not all and not without some serious attention to detail. Essentially those who successfully use peat are doing water changes with decent levels of Kh, which is worked on by both the tannic acid and the bacteria, and the next water change occurs before they run clear out. I have even read of methods that involve Adding Crushed coral (CaCo3) and peat to the same system. one adds carbonate one removes it. Properly balance itwould work, but seems like too much work for me.

Crushed Coral, Aragonite, limestone, etc. are CaCo3. My experience is that these items all dissolve at a rate that largely depends on pH. Most forms of Calcium carbonate quitdissolving at about 7.6-7.8 pH. so if you have CaCo3 in your substrate, It will do everything it can to keep your pH at 7.6-7.8. The lower you try to take your pH the faster your sand will dissolve to counteract it. Of all the forms I've tried Aragonite seems to be the one that takes pH slightly higher and dissolves the quickest. I am fairly certain that carib sea sand is mostly aragonite (but read the label there is more than one product under that name) I'd see how it reacts but you may want to pick a different substrate.

Either way I would not at all be worried about putting angels and tetras in a tank with a pH of 7.8.


HTH
Dave
 
I had a similar problem with high ph in my tank. Turns out I had to soften the water (I had hard water out of the tap) before the ph could go down. After this, I used some ph lowering chemicals and am now using this new product by aquasafe called easybalance with nitraban, which helps stabilize the tank water parameters.
 
vgeorge said:
I had a similar problem with high ph in my tank. Turns out I had to soften the water (I had hard water out of the tap) before the ph could go down. After this, I used some ph lowering chemicals and am now using this new product by aquasafe called easybalance with nitraban, which helps stabilize the tank water parameters.

Thanks for the reply. I'm generally against using chemicals to change water parameters for fear of unbalancing everything. I know that some people have luck with it, but I'd prefer to use more natural methods or not worry about it at all as some suggest.

That said, want to give another note of thanks to Dave for taking the time to craft such a detailed response.
 
I was wondering why the PH in my tank would not drop below 7.6 no matter how much I tried. I finally got a KH/GH testing kit (had to order online, no one here carried one) and while the GH is at 1 the KH is 24! No wonder I couldn't get the PH to drop.

What is the safe KH range for most freshwater tropical fish and plants?
 
there is a bit of misinformation about the whole "fish can't read PH"

all species have an prefered zone to live in; whether it be temp, humidity, ph, etc. So while a ram may be able to live in 7.6ph, they will not thrive, because it is out of the range that is best for them. If an organism is kept outside of its comfort zone, it often will not grow as big, live as long, and is definately won't reproduce. So while it might survive, it won't be as healthy or happy as it would be if kept in the perfered zone.
 
all species have an prefered zone to live in; whether it be temp, humidity, ph, etc. So while a ram may be able to live in 7.6ph, they will not thrive, because it is out of the range that is best for them. If an organism is kept outside of its comfort zone, it often will not grow as big, live as long, and is definately won't reproduce. So while it might survive, it won't be as healthy or happy as it would be if kept in the perfered zone.

This is actually the very myth or mis information that cuases so many people to fret over pH. The real truth is dissolved solids and to a lesser extent mineral profiles. All of which Can be manipulated within a wide range of pH levels. Read the explanation I posted earlier, it clarifies the issue. If you don't believe me, do some testing for yourself. I can create very soft water with a pH of 8.4, and I can create Extremely hard water with a pH of 6.8 I can further manipulate with a bottle of co2, and if the dissolved solids level is steady the fish will not know the difference. MAny of us have kept fish well past their natural lifespan in tanks that didn't remotely resemble their natural waters.

And BTW for the record, RTR was the original source of the quote "Fish can't read pH" I have quoted him many times, but do not take credit for being the author.
Dave

Additionally the largest part of the fish in this hobby are tank born and raised and have no idea what their natural pH was supposed to be. the rest are typically caught very young, adpted and know no difference.
 
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