Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, part 1-4
- Thread starter SantaMonica
- Start date
Depends on feeding, and scrubber power. If the scrubber is strong enough (high flow, high lights, large size), then it will keep N at zero.
Been trying to get caught up on this thread and honestly I haven't read all of it. Just had a few questions and observations.
I really like the idea of using natures systems to work for us. Always like the idea of balancing livestock to work together for the symbiotic greater good.
You noted the algae on the pier pilings at the coast. Obviously they were out of the water between tides, could you use more screens and encouraging more aerobic growth be beneficial? What I mean to say is, maybe less water flow per screen to test/stimulate growth in doing this though your not getting as much mechanical filtration and be running a much lower gph, but if you compensated with multiple screens you might get better turf growth and keep your throughput up.
You'd also be increase your surface area and increasing your buffer for failure catastrophe if something happened. Could you get an "array" of screens in a sump? Lower the water flow, and in worse case scenario they wouldn't grow as fast but you'd do far less cleanings per screen but have more screens working for you.
Just some thoughts.
I really like the idea of using natures systems to work for us. Always like the idea of balancing livestock to work together for the symbiotic greater good.
You noted the algae on the pier pilings at the coast. Obviously they were out of the water between tides, could you use more screens and encouraging more aerobic growth be beneficial? What I mean to say is, maybe less water flow per screen to test/stimulate growth in doing this though your not getting as much mechanical filtration and be running a much lower gph, but if you compensated with multiple screens you might get better turf growth and keep your throughput up.
You'd also be increase your surface area and increasing your buffer for failure catastrophe if something happened. Could you get an "array" of screens in a sump? Lower the water flow, and in worse case scenario they wouldn't grow as fast but you'd do far less cleanings per screen but have more screens working for you.
Just some thoughts.
The way you do it is by "surging" the water:
A surge (i.e. "pulsed" flow) is designed to simulate waves at the beach, so that the algae will get a dry-time (say, 15, 30 or 60 seconds, NOT minutes). Dry time helps kill the green and slime algae (which can't live out of the water), and helps promote the real red/brown turf algae, which spends half it's time out of the water anyways. The less hair and slime that collects on the real turf, the more the real turf can get light and flow and thus do its filtering. Dry time also helps remove the boundary layer of water on the algae, which otherwise tends to reduce the transfer of nutrients back and forth from the algae to the water. To further simulate the beach, a fan can be added that will help dry off the algae when the flow is off. The more air, the better. Note that for a fan to work, however, the water must be pulsed; continuous water flow will not let the air get to the algae. Also note that the fan will do a lot of cooling too. Note, however, that non-pulsed scrubbers that grow only green hair and slime still do a great job. They just grow a lot.
Original versions of scrubbers in the '70s, '80s and '90s used a tilting water dump-device (which was patented for many years) which filled up and dumped periodically. It worked but had many drawbacks, which fortunately are all solved by the current waterall design. The two current methods of pulsing the flow (i.e., surging) are by putting a timer on the pump (if you are using a pump), or by building a siphon surge device out of pvc, which works with or without a pump. The siphon surge method is not the easiest thing to build, so if you have a choice, try a timer on the pump first. Nevertheless, here is some info on siphons:
http://www.tiwalkme.org/BellAndSiphon.htm
Note that a pulsed flow is not required for a scrubber to work, and it's not even proven that it works better. However it does seem to be required to get real red/brown turf to grow, and it is this type of turf that pulls the most nutrients per unit size.
A surge (i.e. "pulsed" flow) is designed to simulate waves at the beach, so that the algae will get a dry-time (say, 15, 30 or 60 seconds, NOT minutes). Dry time helps kill the green and slime algae (which can't live out of the water), and helps promote the real red/brown turf algae, which spends half it's time out of the water anyways. The less hair and slime that collects on the real turf, the more the real turf can get light and flow and thus do its filtering. Dry time also helps remove the boundary layer of water on the algae, which otherwise tends to reduce the transfer of nutrients back and forth from the algae to the water. To further simulate the beach, a fan can be added that will help dry off the algae when the flow is off. The more air, the better. Note that for a fan to work, however, the water must be pulsed; continuous water flow will not let the air get to the algae. Also note that the fan will do a lot of cooling too. Note, however, that non-pulsed scrubbers that grow only green hair and slime still do a great job. They just grow a lot.
Original versions of scrubbers in the '70s, '80s and '90s used a tilting water dump-device (which was patented for many years) which filled up and dumped periodically. It worked but had many drawbacks, which fortunately are all solved by the current waterall design. The two current methods of pulsing the flow (i.e., surging) are by putting a timer on the pump (if you are using a pump), or by building a siphon surge device out of pvc, which works with or without a pump. The siphon surge method is not the easiest thing to build, so if you have a choice, try a timer on the pump first. Nevertheless, here is some info on siphons:
http://www.tiwalkme.org/BellAndSiphon.htm
Note that a pulsed flow is not required for a scrubber to work, and it's not even proven that it works better. However it does seem to be required to get real red/brown turf to grow, and it is this type of turf that pulls the most nutrients per unit size.
Update Of The Day: Growth Progression
Blank screens usually start off with a light brown slime of diatoms, unless the water is really high in nitrate and phosphate, in which it might start with dark spots. After a few weeks, green slime or green hair will usually grow. And from that point on, it will be a mix of brown and green, all of which is easily cleaned off. After a few months, however, and if you have enough light (and maybe pulsed flow), you may start seeing real red/brown turf, or possibly bright green turf. You'll know that they are turf because they won't come off no matter what you do, except with a razor blade.
Blank screens usually start off with a light brown slime of diatoms, unless the water is really high in nitrate and phosphate, in which it might start with dark spots. After a few weeks, green slime or green hair will usually grow. And from that point on, it will be a mix of brown and green, all of which is easily cleaned off. After a few months, however, and if you have enough light (and maybe pulsed flow), you may start seeing real red/brown turf, or possibly bright green turf. You'll know that they are turf because they won't come off no matter what you do, except with a razor blade.
Needlepoint plastic screen might be easier to use/make and cost less.Most every hobby craft's or sewing place sell them.
They are pretty tough and semi rigid and easy to zip tie to make a variety of shapes.
Regards,
Tom Barr
They are pretty tough and semi rigid and easy to zip tie to make a variety of shapes.
Regards,
Tom Barr
I had SM get one of his new scrubber boxes made up for me, or it's in the making so I need to get busy on the plumbing and that screen. PB have you made one of these up yet?
Will I need to revise the pipe cut outs?
I told them to make them deeper, so no. All you need is primer, pipe, lights, and maybe a bulkhead for the 1.5" drain hole if you want to attach a pipe there (I didn't; water just falls out the hole).
