Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, part 1-4
- Thread starter SantaMonica
- Start date
The main difference is scale of filtering. The size of a refugium that would be needed to reduce the same amount of nutrients would be very huge. Several factors cause this:
Light levels are too low in a fuge (nutrient reduction is proportional to the amount of light); The lights are too far away from the algae (nutrient reduction is proportional to inverse square of the distance of the bulb); the flow is too slow (nutrient reduction is proportional to the flow rate). These have always been the reasons that fuge's could not filter as much as a scrubber, even when the fuge is very large.
Baby copepods actually do survive a pump; it's the adult copepods, and larger species of pods, that probably don't. But scrubbers don't grow anything older than 7 day-old pods anyways, because of the cleanings in FW. If the goal of a fuge is just to grow big pods, and filtering is not needed, then a fuge with lots of thick macro's would probably work better.
Light levels are too low in a fuge (nutrient reduction is proportional to the amount of light); The lights are too far away from the algae (nutrient reduction is proportional to inverse square of the distance of the bulb); the flow is too slow (nutrient reduction is proportional to the flow rate). These have always been the reasons that fuge's could not filter as much as a scrubber, even when the fuge is very large.
Baby copepods actually do survive a pump; it's the adult copepods, and larger species of pods, that probably don't. But scrubbers don't grow anything older than 7 day-old pods anyways, because of the cleanings in FW. If the goal of a fuge is just to grow big pods, and filtering is not needed, then a fuge with lots of thick macro's would probably work better.
Well it took a while to get time to take more pics, but here are the updated ones of my 100 gallon tank. The main thing to mention is that this tank is not for showing... it is for experimenting. Details are at the end of this post. There have been no waterchanges since August 2008. The only dosings are Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime in the top-off (for Cal and Alk), Seachem Reef Advantage mag, and Seachem Reef Advantage strontium. Feeding is 48 ml of skimmate... I mean... blended oysters, per day, 20 square inches of nori per day, and one silverside per week (for the eel). There are no mechanical filters, no chemical filters, and no sand. The only filters are the live rock (now 5 years old), and the algae in the scrubbers. The lighting is 2 X 150 watt halides, and one 96 watt actinic. The tank is 30 inches tall. Tests are Nitrate and Phosphate = 0 (Salifert), pH = 8.3 to 8.6, and the water is contantly filled with food particles:
High-Res: Click here
Videos:
Whole Tank:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUl8FIQAxr0
Tank Right to Left:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58pOisX2vSs
Eel Eating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDZtHf-xXCc
Flower Pot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMdllQSKU2c
Frag Tray:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtvF0ZbVX7w
Liquid Feeder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOIx09XWYCo
Tube Anemone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7TnVm19td4
Here were the main experiments:
Iron Overdosing: I tried adding an iron supplement for many years, but never saw any affect. I always followed the instructions, such as Kent's Iron+Manganese "Add two teaspoons per 100 gal, per week". It had no visible effect. But after I started to read the literature about algae and iron, and after I realized that I now have much more algae in my system that the average tank does, I went out on a limb and poured in 8 ounces of Kent's. This is 24 times the recommended dosage for 100 gallons. But I reasoned that it's not the gallons that matter, it's the amount of algae. And it worked. The algae in the scrubber, that previously was yellow and hard (due to lack of iron), turned solid green and fluffy. Growth was much faster that week too.
So if more was better, much more should be much better. So I poured in a HALF GALLON of the Kent's. This is 225 times the recommended dosage, and over 9 times more than what I put in before. This was the biggest mistake I've made yet on this tank (coral-wise). Within a few hours, both of the bubble corals shrank up to nothing, and started letting pieces go. The next day, my 3 year old 5" litho was half gone. And by the end of the week about 30 of my 60 corals were completely wiped out. Iron was even beginning to deposit on the inside of the tubing that feeds the scrubbers. Well, I never did a waterchange, and things have gone back to normal, but now I know the power and the problems of adding iron. The more algae you have in a system, the more iron it can use; but don't add too much. How much is too much? The green soft corals (like a green bubble) seem to be affected first, so watch those.
Over Feeding: When my scrubber (only one unit at the time) was basically not filtering at all (before I knew about pumps clogging, and lights getting weaker), I increased feeding to 128 ml of skimmate... I mean blended oysters... per day, along with 5 frozen cubes per day, and one silverside per day. No waterchanges of course. So with this high level of import, and with almost no export, nuisance algae began to explode in the tank. I must say, the few SPS I had really grew at that time. The over feeding made up for the small 150 watt halides in a 30 inch tall tank.
Non Feeding: After realizing the non-flow in the scrubber (due to the clogged pump), and the worn out lights in the scrubber (should have been replaced 9 months earlier), I got the export back into operation. But to speed up the removal of the nuisance algae in the display, I stopped all feeding for 2 months. No blended oysters, no nori, no cubes, nothing. Only one silverside for the eel, but only every 2 weeks. Well, another big lesson learned: If corals have been growing based on high amounts of food in the water, they cannot survive on less. In other words, if the food in the water was always low, the corals would not have developed a need for food. But since they were fed large amounts of food for a while, they grew and needed those large amounts at all times. When the feeding was stopped, I lost about 4 corals in the first 4 weeks, and another 10 corals in the next 4 weeks.
So the pics you see are what's left after the iron, the over feeding, and the non-feeding. I don't recommend these tests for anyone else; I did them so that I would be able to recommend safe feeding and filtering methods for others.
High-Res: Click here
Videos:
Whole Tank:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUl8FIQAxr0
Tank Right to Left:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58pOisX2vSs
Eel Eating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDZtHf-xXCc
Flower Pot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMdllQSKU2c
Frag Tray:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtvF0ZbVX7w
Liquid Feeder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOIx09XWYCo
Tube Anemone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7TnVm19td4
Here were the main experiments:
Iron Overdosing: I tried adding an iron supplement for many years, but never saw any affect. I always followed the instructions, such as Kent's Iron+Manganese "Add two teaspoons per 100 gal, per week". It had no visible effect. But after I started to read the literature about algae and iron, and after I realized that I now have much more algae in my system that the average tank does, I went out on a limb and poured in 8 ounces of Kent's. This is 24 times the recommended dosage for 100 gallons. But I reasoned that it's not the gallons that matter, it's the amount of algae. And it worked. The algae in the scrubber, that previously was yellow and hard (due to lack of iron), turned solid green and fluffy. Growth was much faster that week too.
So if more was better, much more should be much better. So I poured in a HALF GALLON of the Kent's. This is 225 times the recommended dosage, and over 9 times more than what I put in before. This was the biggest mistake I've made yet on this tank (coral-wise). Within a few hours, both of the bubble corals shrank up to nothing, and started letting pieces go. The next day, my 3 year old 5" litho was half gone. And by the end of the week about 30 of my 60 corals were completely wiped out. Iron was even beginning to deposit on the inside of the tubing that feeds the scrubbers. Well, I never did a waterchange, and things have gone back to normal, but now I know the power and the problems of adding iron. The more algae you have in a system, the more iron it can use; but don't add too much. How much is too much? The green soft corals (like a green bubble) seem to be affected first, so watch those.
Over Feeding: When my scrubber (only one unit at the time) was basically not filtering at all (before I knew about pumps clogging, and lights getting weaker), I increased feeding to 128 ml of skimmate... I mean blended oysters... per day, along with 5 frozen cubes per day, and one silverside per day. No waterchanges of course. So with this high level of import, and with almost no export, nuisance algae began to explode in the tank. I must say, the few SPS I had really grew at that time. The over feeding made up for the small 150 watt halides in a 30 inch tall tank.
Non Feeding: After realizing the non-flow in the scrubber (due to the clogged pump), and the worn out lights in the scrubber (should have been replaced 9 months earlier), I got the export back into operation. But to speed up the removal of the nuisance algae in the display, I stopped all feeding for 2 months. No blended oysters, no nori, no cubes, nothing. Only one silverside for the eel, but only every 2 weeks. Well, another big lesson learned: If corals have been growing based on high amounts of food in the water, they cannot survive on less. In other words, if the food in the water was always low, the corals would not have developed a need for food. But since they were fed large amounts of food for a while, they grew and needed those large amounts at all times. When the feeding was stopped, I lost about 4 corals in the first 4 weeks, and another 10 corals in the next 4 weeks.
So the pics you see are what's left after the iron, the over feeding, and the non-feeding. I don't recommend these tests for anyone else; I did them so that I would be able to recommend safe feeding and filtering methods for others.
Success updates...
Trichome on the CR site: "I took my skimmer out of my 29g sump about 2 months ago. Since then i have not done a water change...I know i should but i am bad about that. I NEVER have to clean my glass in my DT. I don't take water parameters so i can't tell you what mine are, but i do know i don't get any algae in my tank other than bubble algae. I harvest one side of my scrubber about every 2 weeks [needs to be more often]. The water must be pretty clean because my 2 golden striped maroon clowns have spawned, for their first time, about 1 month after i took my skimmer out. Not only are there several people in Cincinnati trying algae scrubbers with great success there is a 50 page thread of people with great success too. 6 month update: I have had my turf scrubber going on my 29g tank for 6 months now without a skimmer. Currently i have 2 Gold Stripped Maroon clownfish, a Yasha gobie, a sixline wrasse, 2 cleaner shrimp, and a candy cane pistol shrimp in the tank, along with several anemones. I have to say everything had been running great! I only have to clean the glass about once a week. Everything in the tank seems to be very happy with the current bio load. I have been doing water changes about once every 2 months (I know i should be doing it more) [not really]. As far as i can tell the turf scrubber has been a success for me and when i move i plan on adding one to my 120g display tank. However, I will not be going skimmerless on the 120g display."
Redwing on the CR site: "I set [my scrubber] up to remove algae from my display tank (and that is exactly what it is doing). But I now I have noticed that my skim-mate is much darker and that I do not have to clean it as much (about once every week not every other day). also like I posted my nitrates have never been undetectable (more like 5+ ppm) so if you ask me [the scrubber] is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. Could I take my skimmer offline maybe but I most likely will not I like knowing that I have backup if something fails [except, skimmers don't remove ammonia, so they won't help]. also my skimmer is a CL125 and I have more than 160 gallons in my hole setup so my skimmer has always been way undersized. (most people would use a skimmer twice that size for this many gallons)"
Mrbncal on the scrubber site: "I have a 75 w/ 30 gallon sump and ran w/o a skimmer for over a year BEFORE I found out about ATS'. There were some things that didnt do well, but anenomes and zoas, most lps did great, montis and a few acros grew fine w/o a skimmer. Bubble algae and hair algae did great also. Since I started running a screen covered in algae my tank has never been healthier. Its been 6 mos or so maybe 7, I have NO hair algae and the bubble algae is losing ground. Almost gone completely. I feed a ton of frozen and oyster feast. I should probably back off some feedings but the coco worms love life and the gorgonians are growing, so why change anything."
Tien on the MFK site: "So I have been running a scrubber on a test tank with goldfish. At one point nitrates were near 80 ppm (I know this is WAY high, but I did this intentionally with the goldfish). I have done no water changes, and my nitrates are now about 7 ppm! and nitrites are zero. I do not have the best set up with lighting yet and the scrubber set up only cost me $25, but it works with fresh water! [yes scrubbers work just as well with FW]. I am going to continue to add goldfish and overstock the tank to see how the scrubber handles it. Looks like I will be building a large scrubber system for the 500 gallon!"
Billy_m24 on the MFK site: "my algee scrubber is working, I finally have purple on my rocks! I have 175 reef tank with 2 400w MH light and 2 blue vho, my nitrate was always very high in the red zone, and now after 2 month [of using the scrubber] I'm running about 10 on the nitrates and I have purple [on the rocks], and my ph stays at 8.2"
PRC on the LR site: "I use a scrubber on a 180g tank, that I upgraded from a 90g tank. Neither ever had a skimmer. I ran across this [scrubber] thread when I was initially cycling my tank, I set it up according to specs, I've never had 1 piece of algae in my tank. I, like everybody, get the usual dusting on the glass that gets brushed off. But I've never had algae, and I've never had nitrates above 5ppm. I feed alot because I've got big fish with big appetites. I also have very little clean up crew. I panicked when I first set mine up because I didn't think it was working. I just left it, it started to work and has kept my tank very stable. Just tweek it a little and give it time. It doesn't take control of the system overnight, but once it does it keeps it very stable....on top of that it only takes about 5 minutes to clean once per week. I'm so naive when it comes to algae issues that when I read a thread about hair algae, I automatically assume that somebody is just neglecting there tank terribly because I've never had to deal with it."
Renman303 on the MD site: "I have been running a 4-sheet (8 1/2" x 11") ATS since June '09 with not only no ill effects but, my water is crystal clear! I have unhooked my Deltec AP851 Protein Skimmer in July of '09 (anyone want to buy it?) and have been running solely on the ATS since then (~15 months). I scrape one side of each of the 4 sheets once a month [needs more often!]. I add no chemicals of any kind to the water and only do a 10 percent water change once a week. Salt is much cheaper than chemicals. I don't even use RO/DI water any more. I just run through Carbon as Phosban prior to mixing. Simple....as it should be!"
Vannpytt on the scrubber site: "I'm experiencing massive amounts of live particles in my water. When the lights go out, and I turn on a flashlight, I can see with my bare eyes 1-3mm long shrimplike creatures swimming in the water, jumping on the stones. It's amazing, while the water is so clear, there are still so much life. I'm also experiencing massive critical comments from the local forums claiming I'm destined to fail etc. I still have no values measurable of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate nor phosphate. The pH is fine as well as the salinity. The algae growth [in the tank] that came initially, is slower, and I added 2 lawnmovers to take care of the rest. Coraline is spreading on the live rocks, I added a Sun Coral who seems to be happy, as well as some Zoas."
Vykhang on the scrubber site: "After 4 yrs, it has become so hard to maintain my 300 gal reef/fish tank due to nitrate and phosphate. Just doing 10-15 percent water changes on 300 gal tank per week is driving me crazy not to mention salt cost. After seaching the net and came across this website, I've started my own version of scrubber. It has been running over a year for me and I've not changed (add only) water since (I don't belive in changing water if all chemicals are in spec. The scrubbers are 1" above the water line to minimize the water noise [would be even better to have the screens in the water]. Water line is maintained by electronic sensor. Can't speak for everyone but the results has been absolutelly wonderful. Nitrate and Phosphate are un-detectable. I can't thank Santa Monica enough because little to no water changes. I just maintain chemical additives and add water to my reserve tank."
Yesman on the scrubber site: "I clean it all off completely every 7 days. However as you can see with over 3 pounds in weight of algae every 7 days being scraped off the screen and with nitrates and phosphates at zero, it may be ok to clean this way. Interesting to note that at the bottom of the acrylic box, the water level is about 3 inches with algae growing all over the acrylic and alive with pods, even some amphipods!"
Trichome on the CR site: "I took my skimmer out of my 29g sump about 2 months ago. Since then i have not done a water change...I know i should but i am bad about that. I NEVER have to clean my glass in my DT. I don't take water parameters so i can't tell you what mine are, but i do know i don't get any algae in my tank other than bubble algae. I harvest one side of my scrubber about every 2 weeks [needs to be more often]. The water must be pretty clean because my 2 golden striped maroon clowns have spawned, for their first time, about 1 month after i took my skimmer out. Not only are there several people in Cincinnati trying algae scrubbers with great success there is a 50 page thread of people with great success too. 6 month update: I have had my turf scrubber going on my 29g tank for 6 months now without a skimmer. Currently i have 2 Gold Stripped Maroon clownfish, a Yasha gobie, a sixline wrasse, 2 cleaner shrimp, and a candy cane pistol shrimp in the tank, along with several anemones. I have to say everything had been running great! I only have to clean the glass about once a week. Everything in the tank seems to be very happy with the current bio load. I have been doing water changes about once every 2 months (I know i should be doing it more) [not really]. As far as i can tell the turf scrubber has been a success for me and when i move i plan on adding one to my 120g display tank. However, I will not be going skimmerless on the 120g display."
Redwing on the CR site: "I set [my scrubber] up to remove algae from my display tank (and that is exactly what it is doing). But I now I have noticed that my skim-mate is much darker and that I do not have to clean it as much (about once every week not every other day). also like I posted my nitrates have never been undetectable (more like 5+ ppm) so if you ask me [the scrubber] is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. Could I take my skimmer offline maybe but I most likely will not I like knowing that I have backup if something fails [except, skimmers don't remove ammonia, so they won't help]. also my skimmer is a CL125 and I have more than 160 gallons in my hole setup so my skimmer has always been way undersized. (most people would use a skimmer twice that size for this many gallons)"
Mrbncal on the scrubber site: "I have a 75 w/ 30 gallon sump and ran w/o a skimmer for over a year BEFORE I found out about ATS'. There were some things that didnt do well, but anenomes and zoas, most lps did great, montis and a few acros grew fine w/o a skimmer. Bubble algae and hair algae did great also. Since I started running a screen covered in algae my tank has never been healthier. Its been 6 mos or so maybe 7, I have NO hair algae and the bubble algae is losing ground. Almost gone completely. I feed a ton of frozen and oyster feast. I should probably back off some feedings but the coco worms love life and the gorgonians are growing, so why change anything."
Tien on the MFK site: "So I have been running a scrubber on a test tank with goldfish. At one point nitrates were near 80 ppm (I know this is WAY high, but I did this intentionally with the goldfish). I have done no water changes, and my nitrates are now about 7 ppm! and nitrites are zero. I do not have the best set up with lighting yet and the scrubber set up only cost me $25, but it works with fresh water! [yes scrubbers work just as well with FW]. I am going to continue to add goldfish and overstock the tank to see how the scrubber handles it. Looks like I will be building a large scrubber system for the 500 gallon!"
Billy_m24 on the MFK site: "my algee scrubber is working, I finally have purple on my rocks! I have 175 reef tank with 2 400w MH light and 2 blue vho, my nitrate was always very high in the red zone, and now after 2 month [of using the scrubber] I'm running about 10 on the nitrates and I have purple [on the rocks], and my ph stays at 8.2"
PRC on the LR site: "I use a scrubber on a 180g tank, that I upgraded from a 90g tank. Neither ever had a skimmer. I ran across this [scrubber] thread when I was initially cycling my tank, I set it up according to specs, I've never had 1 piece of algae in my tank. I, like everybody, get the usual dusting on the glass that gets brushed off. But I've never had algae, and I've never had nitrates above 5ppm. I feed alot because I've got big fish with big appetites. I also have very little clean up crew. I panicked when I first set mine up because I didn't think it was working. I just left it, it started to work and has kept my tank very stable. Just tweek it a little and give it time. It doesn't take control of the system overnight, but once it does it keeps it very stable....on top of that it only takes about 5 minutes to clean once per week. I'm so naive when it comes to algae issues that when I read a thread about hair algae, I automatically assume that somebody is just neglecting there tank terribly because I've never had to deal with it."
Renman303 on the MD site: "I have been running a 4-sheet (8 1/2" x 11") ATS since June '09 with not only no ill effects but, my water is crystal clear! I have unhooked my Deltec AP851 Protein Skimmer in July of '09 (anyone want to buy it?) and have been running solely on the ATS since then (~15 months). I scrape one side of each of the 4 sheets once a month [needs more often!]. I add no chemicals of any kind to the water and only do a 10 percent water change once a week. Salt is much cheaper than chemicals. I don't even use RO/DI water any more. I just run through Carbon as Phosban prior to mixing. Simple....as it should be!"
Vannpytt on the scrubber site: "I'm experiencing massive amounts of live particles in my water. When the lights go out, and I turn on a flashlight, I can see with my bare eyes 1-3mm long shrimplike creatures swimming in the water, jumping on the stones. It's amazing, while the water is so clear, there are still so much life. I'm also experiencing massive critical comments from the local forums claiming I'm destined to fail etc. I still have no values measurable of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate nor phosphate. The pH is fine as well as the salinity. The algae growth [in the tank] that came initially, is slower, and I added 2 lawnmovers to take care of the rest. Coraline is spreading on the live rocks, I added a Sun Coral who seems to be happy, as well as some Zoas."
Vykhang on the scrubber site: "After 4 yrs, it has become so hard to maintain my 300 gal reef/fish tank due to nitrate and phosphate. Just doing 10-15 percent water changes on 300 gal tank per week is driving me crazy not to mention salt cost. After seaching the net and came across this website, I've started my own version of scrubber. It has been running over a year for me and I've not changed (add only) water since (I don't belive in changing water if all chemicals are in spec. The scrubbers are 1" above the water line to minimize the water noise [would be even better to have the screens in the water]. Water line is maintained by electronic sensor. Can't speak for everyone but the results has been absolutelly wonderful. Nitrate and Phosphate are un-detectable. I can't thank Santa Monica enough because little to no water changes. I just maintain chemical additives and add water to my reserve tank."
Yesman on the scrubber site: "I clean it all off completely every 7 days. However as you can see with over 3 pounds in weight of algae every 7 days being scraped off the screen and with nitrates and phosphates at zero, it may be ok to clean this way. Interesting to note that at the bottom of the acrylic box, the water level is about 3 inches with algae growing all over the acrylic and alive with pods, even some amphipods!"
Any suggestions on how to do this on a 29g BioCube without modding the hood? I don't want to spend too much money on it or risk ruining the hood (Since it holds the lights and everything), but this is exactly what I need on my tank.
If you can get two tubes through the hood, you can have an external one. Other ideas are here: http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26
So I'm guessing you mean that I would have the input and output tubes from the pump going into the device? (Sorry, I've taken my sleeping medication, so I don't know if that sentence makes any sense)
Cleaning Guidelines:
Black/oily growth, but no green: Clean every last bit of it off every three days.
Dark brown growth, but no green: Clean all of it off every 4 days.
Light brown growth, but no green: Clean most of if off every 5 days.
Mostly brown growth, but some green: Clean all of the brown off every 6 days, but leave some of the green.
Half brown and half green growth: Clean most of it off every 7 days.
Mostly green growth: clean most of it off every 10 days.
In all cases, stronger lighting will help you get to green faster, even if the extra lighting is only temporary.
Also, when there is lots of green, you are getting the most filtering. So to minimize nutrient spikes which might occur after cleaning the green off, consider cutting the screen vertically into two halves, and cleaning only one of the halves every 5 days. This give 10 days of growth for each half (about the max you can go), but always leaves the other half to do the filtering.
After several months, you may start getting some thick brown algae that feels like fuzz, and it won't come off. That's turf algae. You don't want turf because it's thick and dark, and it blocks light from reaching the screen (also, because turf does not grow fast enough to be a good filter.) Scrape the turf off with a hack saw blade. Matter of fact, if you start getting turf, you can just start doing all your weekly cleaning with a hack saw blade.
Black/oily growth, but no green: Clean every last bit of it off every three days.
Dark brown growth, but no green: Clean all of it off every 4 days.
Light brown growth, but no green: Clean most of if off every 5 days.
Mostly brown growth, but some green: Clean all of the brown off every 6 days, but leave some of the green.
Half brown and half green growth: Clean most of it off every 7 days.
Mostly green growth: clean most of it off every 10 days.
In all cases, stronger lighting will help you get to green faster, even if the extra lighting is only temporary.
Also, when there is lots of green, you are getting the most filtering. So to minimize nutrient spikes which might occur after cleaning the green off, consider cutting the screen vertically into two halves, and cleaning only one of the halves every 5 days. This give 10 days of growth for each half (about the max you can go), but always leaves the other half to do the filtering.
After several months, you may start getting some thick brown algae that feels like fuzz, and it won't come off. That's turf algae. You don't want turf because it's thick and dark, and it blocks light from reaching the screen (also, because turf does not grow fast enough to be a good filter.) Scrape the turf off with a hack saw blade. Matter of fact, if you start getting turf, you can just start doing all your weekly cleaning with a hack saw blade.
