MORAL THREAD (is it right to Kill a sick fish???)

[lark]

Clove oil will work as an anesthetic prior to freezing. It takes a few drops added to the water prior to freezing. Recently, I have been wondering though. I have heard mention several times that the least painful way is a sharp knife across the neck. If you didn't hesitate, I think this is probably the best option. I don't know if I could do it though.

 

[TPIRman]

With small-to-medium tropicals, a much better method than freezing in tank water is to get a bowl of water and put a lot of ice in it, and wait a bit until the water is extremely cold. Then take the sick fish out of the tank and immediately put it in the bowl. The fish's bodily functions will cease within seconds. Then you can put the fish in the freezer to ensure that it has passed on.

RobUK, I think we all support you no matter what decision you make. None of us are qualified to say absolutely which choice is right or wrong. However, the fact that you are trying to keep the fish's best interests at heart is, IMO, admirable no matter what you decide.

Sorry you have to go through this.

 

[cgrabe]

Originally posted by lark
Clove oil will work as an anesthetic prior to freezing. It takes a few drops added to the water prior to freezing. Recently, I have been wondering though. I have heard mention several times that the least painful way is a sharp knife across the neck. If you didn't hesitate, I think this is probably the best option. I don't know if I could do it though.

I don't know about fish, but it is generally believed that a human can live 30 seconds or more after having his body severed from his head. That can't be pleasant. Of course some say fish do not have the mental capacity to feel pain, but we really don't know.

 

[tomm10]

In print it makes sense that a fish's metabolism would simply slow and then stop in the freezing water but IIRC, there was a thread a couple of days ago where a few people recounted stories of freezing fish outside (where they could see them) and watching in horror the fish spasmed.

Never having done it I have no idea which is correct but I think I would go for knocking them out with clove oil or alka selzer and then freezing.

 

[lark]

I would think that after having your head sliced off you would not be living. Your body might have a moment of residual energy in the nervous system causing the appearance of such. I am not sure but I think the brain would never last even 30 seconds without bloodflow or oxygen. How would they study this I wonder.? Any medical studies? The reason I can of think it might be better is because I have met several people who though haven't had their head detached have had their spinal cords completely severed. They tell me they felt nothing anywhere. I asked my doctor once about this and he told me that it had to do with a combination of damage to the nervous system as well as shock. The nature of the injury can cause the still active parts of the nervous system to develop a temporary imbalance in the chemicals used to transmit signals, kind of like a road block.
How would all of this work with a fish's physiology I have no clue. I would think though that being much simpler or as redundant than a human brain that function would immediately cease. I do know that several books on Goldfish as well as sources online say that freezing is no longer considered humane without anesthetic. If anything it is a good reason to keep your tank in tip top shape. It is hard to do emotionally. At least for me.

 

[cgrabe]

Originally posted by lark
I would think that after having your head sliced off you would not be living. Your body might have a moment of residual energy in the nervous system causing the appearance of such. I am not sure but I think the brain would never last even 30 seconds without bloodflow or oxygen. How would they study this I wonder.? Any medical studies?

Well it's a difficult thing to study, but there have been stories of heads moving their eyes around looking at observers after they had been 'executed' on a guilatine. I seem to remember that during one of the last beheadings in this country, a doctor got the criminal to agree to blink as long as he could after decapitation. He did so for a short while after. It's impossible to say if that was nerves or if he was conscious of course. Really, even after the head is severed, there is still oxygenated blood in the blood vessels feeding the brain. The brain itself isn't harmed. Hopefully they would be knocked unconscious by the shock, but we can't exactly ask them.

Take a look at this excerpt from a book about reptile decapitation:

As hard to believe as it seems, the heads cut from reptiles live on well after the horrific event of decapitation itself. It is not a case of "nerves causing the head to move unconsciously" as most people think. The heads, and parts of the neck if still attached, are alive and some may attempt to bite objects which approach; the eyes may follow movement and the pupils contract and dilate in response to light and dark; they can blink and in the case of snakes and lizards, flick out and in their tongues to test the air for scent and even move slightly if enough of their neck is left.

Of course small fish are much simpler creatures than reptiles, but I'd still prefer to avoid decapitation unless they're well anesthized.

 

[RobUK]

Hi all

Well.... The deed is done,
I choose the sickest shark and my smaller chicilid had taken a turn for the worse this evening and didnt look like he would see the morning so he went aswell

If anyone is interested the chosen method was decapitation, I wont go into details about how etc, but I asur everyone they
died INSTANTLY and didnt suffer at all.

I still have a sick shark but thought the cichilid looked so bad I couldnt leave him.

On the plus side there is less bio-load on the tank which should speed up its recovery from this awfull spike and mean the other fish should recover back to full health (allthough one more shark may still need to go, allthough he does look better tonight)

Thanks all for your advice and opinions, this has actually became a very interetsing thread, so please feel free to keep posting. as this thread may help others out if they face this or a similar situation as me at sometime

***MODS: sticky?????***

 

[daveedka]

In print it makes sense that a fish's metabolism would simply slow and then stop in the freezing water but IIRC, there was a thread a couple of days ago where a few people recounted stories of freezing fish outside (where they could see them) and watching in horror the fish spasmed.

I have a difficult time believing those threads, I read them as well, and in each case where someone claimed to have watched a fish die slowly in cold water they were specifically trying to argue the inhumanity of it. Thise same people who were that concerned with being humane, were able to watch their fish suffer slowly and die without intervening simply so they could report that it was inhumane? Doesn't add up to me, and on the contrary, if you put a fish in an open topped bowl and stick it in the freezer, the fish seldom if ever jums out. this would indicate very strongly that they are going to sleep quietly and not in a lot of pain. next the clove oil method that RTR posted a few momnths ago was 3 drops clove oil in one litre of water, to put the fish to sleep, then add 2-3 drops per litre more to make it permanent. This seems like a pretty humane idea to me. Lastly, the beheading, and smacking on the floor or table method are quite quick, regardless of how gross they may or may not be. However these types of methods require the person administering them to be assertive and thourough, this is not something for a timid person or someone unsure of themselves to do. I tend to go with the manual methods rather than chemical, but I also have a lot of experience on the darker side of husbandry do to my upbringing.

As I've said many times, euthanasia is a difficult but very necessary part of animal husbandry, and it is always a personal decision as to when it is and isn't appropriate. Hopefuly you did the best you could, and even if you didn't your heart was where it belonged on this issue, so you should feel no guilt. Don't confuse gult with sadness, they need to be seperated.