slipknottin said:
ROFL. I know a dog lover or 2 who I find quite amusing in this respect. Interesting read, thanks for the link.
most humane way to euthanize a fish
- Thread starter Lauren
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ROFL. I know a dog lover or 2 who I find quite amusing in this respect. Interesting read, thanks for the link.
I really was questioning even adding my 2 cents here just because it seems to be a bit heated! I truely hope I don't offend anyone with my comments. I have seen strong arguements to claim either case in this thread and much more at earlier threads and other locations. This thread is so debatable because it has several different points which could be argued and seen at least in 2 different ways
1) Is "being proven by science" the end all, be all of fact? Some would say yes, some no. The big bang theory isn't proven, but is still taught to children in school as the most "probable" scenario. Different religious groups believe their way to be the truth. I'm sure at some point it was considered a fact that the world was flat. Science itself has evolved just as our understandings have evolved! Some experiments could be done with 10 separate groups of 100 random people in each group, with 1 group being a "control group". An argument could be made based on the findings (this happens almost daily at prestigious colleges), only to be "changed" when years later 1 freak occurance that disproves the original case is documented. Either way scientists are just people and science is created and adapted by people....thus FLAWED to some extent.
2) Fish not having feelings is based on a current "theory" that their neurological system doesn't have the capacity for the "pain" as it is defined in medical texts. I don't remember for sure, but I believe I read someone wrote that pain is an emotional response and that fish don't have emotions....is that right? I'm not sure if I remember exactly what was written. Sorry if I'm wrong. If this is right, then fish would not experience fear, which I believe could be strongly argued against! I fine a couple of experiences of my own interesting in light of this topic. One is when I am not paying close attention and someone acts like they are going to hit me hard, but only lightly touch me (or similar event) and I react as if hit hard....and even say "OUCH!" Seconds later I realize their was no pain involved! Second thing is how some fish that I move from tank to tank react in strange ways sometimes. First I catch them in my hands, then the thrashing around happens, then a calm comes over the fish (with possible intermittent thrashing at random), then I put them into the tank. If their sensory nerves are telling them "trouble!", then why don't they continue to thrash until it is no longer stimulated? Some fish thrash all the way to the new tank. Often times small fish will remain in the "fold of my hand when released into a new tank feeling more secure next to the "thing" that just "hurt/touched/grabbed" them! Why? If the sensor doesn't say something more than trouble or cold or hot, then they would not react this way!
Please chime in if you have some ideas on my comments. But Please.....be gentle!
-Mark
1) Is "being proven by science" the end all, be all of fact? Some would say yes, some no. The big bang theory isn't proven, but is still taught to children in school as the most "probable" scenario. Different religious groups believe their way to be the truth. I'm sure at some point it was considered a fact that the world was flat. Science itself has evolved just as our understandings have evolved! Some experiments could be done with 10 separate groups of 100 random people in each group, with 1 group being a "control group". An argument could be made based on the findings (this happens almost daily at prestigious colleges), only to be "changed" when years later 1 freak occurance that disproves the original case is documented. Either way scientists are just people and science is created and adapted by people....thus FLAWED to some extent.
2) Fish not having feelings is based on a current "theory" that their neurological system doesn't have the capacity for the "pain" as it is defined in medical texts. I don't remember for sure, but I believe I read someone wrote that pain is an emotional response and that fish don't have emotions....is that right? I'm not sure if I remember exactly what was written. Sorry if I'm wrong. If this is right, then fish would not experience fear, which I believe could be strongly argued against! I fine a couple of experiences of my own interesting in light of this topic. One is when I am not paying close attention and someone acts like they are going to hit me hard, but only lightly touch me (or similar event) and I react as if hit hard....and even say "OUCH!" Seconds later I realize their was no pain involved! Second thing is how some fish that I move from tank to tank react in strange ways sometimes. First I catch them in my hands, then the thrashing around happens, then a calm comes over the fish (with possible intermittent thrashing at random), then I put them into the tank. If their sensory nerves are telling them "trouble!", then why don't they continue to thrash until it is no longer stimulated? Some fish thrash all the way to the new tank. Often times small fish will remain in the "fold of my hand when released into a new tank feeling more secure next to the "thing" that just "hurt/touched/grabbed" them! Why? If the sensor doesn't say something more than trouble or cold or hot, then they would not react this way!
Please chime in if you have some ideas on my comments. But Please.....be gentle!
-Mark
By the way, any of you who recieve National Geographic magazine might enjoy some of the articles in the March issue. It deals heavily with current studies and research on the mind and brain.
One issue I found clever was about a study in which people were placed in front of a table and seated with their hands on their lap (laid flat) so they could not see through the table to their hand. On top of the table was a rubber life-like hand mould. The scientist then began to stroke the rubber hand and their real hands simultaneously with a feather or something. The people were fully aware of what was really happening, but in as short as 15 seconds (I believe) most people began to feel strongly connected to the rubber hand. So much so that they could "feel" the scientist stroking the rubber hand with the feather even though he was not touching their real hand! They also would recoil as the scientists would hit the rubber hand with a hammer....actually pulling their own hands back! This was a very interesting article to me! The whole issue was a great read!
Just something to think of in regards to fish and pain!
One issue I found clever was about a study in which people were placed in front of a table and seated with their hands on their lap (laid flat) so they could not see through the table to their hand. On top of the table was a rubber life-like hand mould. The scientist then began to stroke the rubber hand and their real hands simultaneously with a feather or something. The people were fully aware of what was really happening, but in as short as 15 seconds (I believe) most people began to feel strongly connected to the rubber hand. So much so that they could "feel" the scientist stroking the rubber hand with the feather even though he was not touching their real hand! They also would recoil as the scientists would hit the rubber hand with a hammer....actually pulling their own hands back! This was a very interesting article to me! The whole issue was a great read!
Just something to think of in regards to fish and pain!
Go ahead and chime in. Like I said, no bad juju, just good fun
. I wont go on about my feelings as they are already laid out. But why, if something lacks consciousness and is incapable of feeling pain, should we care if it is euthanized in a humain manner? Would it make a difference if you put it out quickly, or just let it suffocate? While it has become obvious that I am not that good at using examples, I will try this one. A tree is a living creature, that as far as I know lacks the ability to feel pain(no nerves that I am aware of). Would it matter if I cut off a branch slowly with a hack saw, or quickly with a chainsaw?
. I wont go on about my feelings as they are already laid out. But why, if something lacks consciousness and is incapable of feeling pain, should we care if it is euthanized in a humain manner? Would it make a difference if you put it out quickly, or just let it suffocate? While it has become obvious that I am not that good at using examples, I will try this one. A tree is a living creature, that as far as I know lacks the ability to feel pain(no nerves that I am aware of). Would it matter if I cut off a branch slowly with a hack saw, or quickly with a chainsaw?
Just an after thought here...but I saw a TV show of a fish that had swim bladder. The owner tied a little string around its belly with a small floatation device attached to the other end and it showed the fish swimming around fine with it on. Just an idea...could be too late though :idea2:
It shouldn't matter whether fish feel pain like we do, or whether they feel it at all ... what should matter is being responsible for the lifeform you have taken into your hands: this means providing what's necessary for a long and healthy life, and killing it as quickly as possible when something's gone wrong.
To say that it doesn't matter how you euthanize the fish, becuase he doesn't feel pain ... really, I think this is ridiculous, and even grotesque. Their ability to feel pain should not be an issue on the table: just kill the fish asap, period.
To say that it doesn't matter how you euthanize the fish, becuase he doesn't feel pain ... really, I think this is ridiculous, and even grotesque. Their ability to feel pain should not be an issue on the table: just kill the fish asap, period.
So does that mean using a mannual saw to cut down a tree is inhumane, as opposed to using a chainsaw?random_zooey said:
slipknottin said:
Hi everyone my name is Thomas Gagnon and I am a marine Biologist for the Woods Hole oceanagraphic Institute in Ma. Modern neuroscience does indeed dictate that fish can feel pain. Studies have shown that fish become highly stressed when introduced into an enviroment of discomfort or on the extreme, pain. Now if a creature's body or mind reacts to a certain enviroment with a positive chemical adjustment it feels pleasure as in the euphoric centers we see stimulated after feeding, now on the other hand we have also seen performed in th neuro mappings of fish that when introduced into an enviroment of what we would consider a painful enviroment whether it be by physical harm, addition of chemical additives or even lack of oxygen the animal produces oxidizers which are the introductory predecessors to the activation of nerve cell hemolysis or a pain feeling. Now yes someone said before that fish do not have the mass quantities of nerve cells we have but still all it takes is one and they have billions. So be nice to your fishy and if you have too, "by the way your fish was not suffering" kill quickly and use a method that is most kind for the fish not 50/50 for the both of you, USE the swinging bag or yes cut off its head but certainly those other methods are just nicer for you and cause more pain for Mr or Mrs. Fishy.
Have a nice Day
Tom Gagnon P.E.
