My first discus

[shawnhu]

actually, they have adapted quite well to the original conditions that wild discus are kept in. they have adjusted in leaps and bounds when you consider the number of generations that Domestics are now kept
with wilds.. the use of RO/DI water with proper buffers is used opposed to tap water domestic discus have adapted to. also they discus are not near as sensitive to nitrate levels as wilds are.. they are fine in nitrates in the 20-40 range.
pH is really not as critical as kh/gh levels or tds. we commonly use pH as a quick indicator of low tds/kh.
but consider that discus are in planted tanks that get doses of fertilizers and that brings to question what the effect would be on wilds in the same situation.


More commonly discus are kept in bare bottom tanks. Some literature points that smaller discus result, when kept in planted tanks.

As far as hormones secreted in the water...that is debatable with no real documentation to either support or contradict the idea.
in reality small water changes with up to 50 % daily is to optimize the conditions encouraging rapid growth.

In a nutshell, discus will require a bit more knowledge and enthusiasm for maintenance than many other tropical fish.
but with the proper effort and research is not an insurmountable task.

Well said!

 

[bs6749]

This is exactly my point. Isn't $240 a rather big risk and investment for a beginner all at once?

$240 is on one EXTREME end of the price range and if you are a beginner you aren't going to want to purchase the fancier strains which this price reflects. You should purchase something less expensive but of equal quality. Strains that have been around a while like blue diamonds, cobalts, red turquoise, etc. would be in the $20 range. You could get 6 disucs for $20 each and spend $120 or half of what the extreme of that would be (8 discus @ $30 each). $120 is not that much of an investment, nor is $240 considering the OP probably spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $40-50 for this single fish. Also keep in mind that they are pets and some people spend the same amount of money or well over $1000 on a dog that lives just as long, so why not spend it on fish?

Soap would be an example. The OP is proceeding cautiously, that's my reasoning. You may be right about the confusion part, however.

You'd be able to pick up on soap in the water with a pH kit. The water with soap would be more alkaline than water out of the tap.

The fish is 3" if I recall, and his tank is 15G. I don't see how that's not big enough for the fish. What would be a suitable size then?

So I could put a 15" fish in a 10g tank because "it fits"? This is what you are implying, that the fish has to physically "fit" into the tank. That's not true at all. Many fish require larger tanks either because of their shape, swimming needs, cleanliness (think goldfish). The minimum size of a tank I'd start to grow out any discus would be a 29g. In fact, I've got 8 juvies in one right now that have been in there for 2 weeks. Sure they "fit" but I know that they should be in a bigger tank soon. How do I know this? I change out at least 50% of the water every day because of the amount of waste they produce. If not changed, the water would turn toxic to the fish in a couple of days.

In regards to QT, it's all up to the hobbyist how he wants to QT. My method of QT may not be the same as yours. Some QT new fish/plants/inverts with nothing else but water and meds. Others QT with water and salt. Yet some more, QT with plants to lighten stress on the fish. Who are you to say what's the right method for QT?

You can argue with me if you want but a quarantine tank, by definition, should be a STERILE TANK. There should be no other inhabitants in the tank except for the newcomers. If you don't understand why this is, then you need to read up on the QT process. The newcomers could harbor parasites that would effect the other tankmates and vice versa. The newcomers are under a lot of stress already from shipping/traveling and this makes them more suceptible to parasites/pathogens that would otherwise not affect them. Not QT'ing newcomers is a surefire way to have problems eventually and if you are going to spend that much money on fish why wouldn't you QT them knowing the possibilities of what could happen if not done?

with wilds.. the use of RO/DI water with proper buffers is used opposed to tap water domestic discus have adapted to. also they discus are not near as sensitive to nitrate levels as wilds are.. they are fine in nitrates in the 20-40 range.
pH is really not as critical as kh/gh levels or tds. we commonly use pH as a quick indicator of low tds/kh.
but consider that discus are in planted tanks that get doses of fertilizers and that brings to question what the effect would be on wilds in the same situation.


More commonly discus are kept in bare bottom tanks. Some literature points that smaller discus result, when kept in planted tanks.

As far as hormones secreted in the water...that is debatable with no real documentation to either support or contradict the idea.
in reality small water changes with up to 50 % daily is to optimize the conditions encouraging rapid growth.

In a nutshell, discus will require a bit more knowledge and enthusiasm for maintenance than many other tropical fish.
but with the proper effort and research is not an insurmountable task.

Tap water conditions vary from region to region. I know of many who keep wilds and use their tap water because they are blessed with soft and acidic water, which wilds should have. I've also heard of people having success with wilds in moderately hard and slightly alkaline water, so maybe it doesn't NEED to be acidic for wilds, though personally I'd keep them in acidic water for the health benefits. Any "expert" that keeps discus will tell you that the nitrate levels should be below 20ppm. They will also tell you that they shoot for under 10ppm in their tanks. Up to 30ppm is "okay" in a planted tank but lower is obviously better. I'm no expert but I am just relaying the truth. I keep my nitrate levels extremly low (under 5ppm) through many water changes.

I've heard the theory that discus juvies grow smaller in planted tanks but I can point you to several examples of people that have grown out juvies in a bare bottom tank with plants in pots and they've had bigger and larger discus than the average. I don't think there is any merit to the myth, other than the possibility that it is harder for the fish to find food in a heavily planted tank.

I can refer you to discus experts that would tell you that the hormones build up to levels in the tank and they inhibit the growth of these fish. This has been known for quite some time. The "water changes to encourage optimal growth" are doing exactly that by removing these hormones. Ever hear someone say that "a fish will only grow to the size of the tank", especially when referring to something like a common pleco? This is the exact reason why. The hormones build up to levels that tell the pleco to stop growing...same with discus.

I agree with your statement that discus require more knowledge and understanding than most fish. It's this lack of understanding and knowledge that will lead a person to the same result as the OP with an unhealthy looking fish that is by itself. Failure to do research beforehand will cost a hobbyist more money than if he or she was to go about it the "right way" the first time.

 

[pinkertd]

Any "expert" that keeps discus will tell you that the nitrate levels should be below 20ppm. They will also tell you that they shoot for under 10ppm in their tanks. Up to 30ppm is "okay" in a planted tank but lower is obviously better. I'm no expert but I am just relaying the truth.

Not true! Nitrate levels of 40 and under are totally tolerable by discus and other tropical fish. There is no proof that a nitrate level of 30-40ppm in any way hurts fish. You're taking breeder preference and recommendation and stating it like it came out of the Holy Grail of Fishkeeping.

The "water changes to encourage optimal growth" are doing exactly that by removing these hormones. The hormones build up to levels that tell the pleco to stop growing...same with discus. Not True! An accumulation of DOC's will build up in the water over time if you're not doing water changes and that will have a huge impact on growth of fish, not just discus. There is no secret "stop growing" hormone that discus emit.

I agree with your statement that discus require more knowledge and understanding than most fish. It's this lack of understanding and knowledge that will lead a person to the same result as the OP with an unhealthy looking fish that is by itself. Failure to do research beforehand will cost a hobbyist more money than if he or she was to go about it the "right way" the first time.

And sorry, but the silliest thing you've said so far is:

In fact, I've got 8 juvies in one right now that have been in there for 2 weeks. Sure they "fit" but I know that they should be in a bigger tank soon. How do I know this? I change out at least 50% of the water every day because of the amount of waste they produce. If not changed, the water would turn toxic to the fish in a couple of days.

Water turn toxic in a few days from 8 baby discus in a 29G barebottom tank? :thud:Geez, my discus should have died a loooooooooooooong time ago. This could only be true if the bottom of the tank was covered in rotting beefheart or other foods.

I think it's too bad you believe some of this junk, keeps you from really enjoying and knowing the pleasure of discus and discus keeping.

 

[Star_Rider]

Tap water conditions vary from region to region. I know of many who keep wilds and use their tap water because they are blessed with soft and acidic water, which wilds should have. I've also heard of people having success with wilds in moderately hard and slightly alkaline water, so maybe it doesn't NEED to be acidic for wilds, though personally I'd keep them in acidic water for the health benefits. Any "expert" that keeps discus will tell you that the nitrate levels should be below 20ppm. They will also tell you that they shoot for under 10ppm in their tanks. Up to 30ppm is "okay" in a planted tank but lower is obviously better. I'm no expert but I am just relaying the truth. I keep my nitrate levels extremly low (under 5ppm) through many water changes.

I've heard the theory that discus juvies grow smaller in planted tanks but I can point you to several examples of people that have grown out juvies in a bare bottom tank with plants in pots and they've had bigger and larger discus than the average. I don't think there is any merit to the myth, other than the possibility that it is harder for the fish to find food in a heavily planted tank.

I can refer you to discus experts that would tell you that the hormones build up to levels in the tank and they inhibit the growth of these fish. This has been known for quite some time. The "water changes to encourage optimal growth" are doing exactly that by removing these hormones. Ever hear someone say that "a fish will only grow to the size of the tank", especially when referring to something like a common pleco? This is the exact reason why. The hormones build up to levels that tell the pleco to stop growing...same with discus.

I agree with your statement that discus require more knowledge and understanding than most fish. It's this lack of understanding and knowledge that will lead a person to the same result as the OP with an unhealthy looking fish that is by itself. Failure to do research beforehand will cost a hobbyist more money than if he or she was to go about it the "right way" the first time.

please, nitrate in and of them selves at those levels are far from toxic.. my nitrate out of tap is 20. my reading in my tank is usually around 40..but my Discus thrive. my water is slightly acidic to neutral with a pH of 7 with no CO2. with CO2 it drops quite a bit. my kh is 3-4 with gh of 5-6.. result means low tds.

it has been proven that growth of fish is more related to the carrying capacity of the environement. clean water, low tds with room to swim and lots of food if the formula to maximize growth.

btw it is not hormones in the water that limit the size of growth of a common pleco..the water is changed to minimize the impact of accumulating TDS the total dissolved organic solids. or waste. poor water is attributed to poor health and as a result poor growth. add more food , you create more waste and pollute the water quicker. much quicker than any impact that any hormones released the water could have.


the question that arises when the 'hormone' theory comes into play...why would a fish excrete a hormone to inhibit it's growth.
it has been attributed to competition and inhibiting the growth of some fish making some more dominant and larger.

but in reality it may have more to do with genetics and aggression which varies from fish to fish..in this case Discus. dominant alpha males will be more aggressive pushing less dominant fish away and get to the food.
the difference results in the dominant fish becoming larger.
breeders overcome this by placing a lot of food in the tank..increasing the chance of all fish getting enough food.. this in turn results in more waste and the chance the water pollute faster...= more water changes.

are there hormones in the water? could be.. but I think there are more plausible explanations.

btw.. the fish growing to the size of the tank is usually referred to as stunting...but even so.. seems to do more with water quality re TDS build up. it is conceivable to actually maximize growth in a small tank but again.. I would attribute it too water quality and food. the issue then falls to exercise.

 

[waverush]

Here's how I used to explain the "stunting" misnomer to customers at PetSmart: "If you had to live in a closet (eating and pooping included), you'd die before you grew to full size too."

 

[Star_Rider]

Here's how I used to explain the "stunting" misnomer to customers at PetSmart: "If you had to live in a closet (eating and pooping included), you'd die before you grew to full size too."

and you wouldn't have many friends either....

 

[shawnhu]

And sorry, but the silliest thing you've said so far is:

In fact, I've got 8 juvies in one right now that have been in there for 2 weeks. Sure they "fit" but I know that they should be in a bigger tank soon. How do I know this? I change out at least 50% of the water every day because of the amount of waste they produce. If not changed, the water would turn toxic to the fish in a couple of days.

Water turn toxic in a few days from 8 baby discus in a 29G barebottom tank? :thud:Geez, my discus should have died a loooooooooooooong time ago. This could only be true if the bottom of the tank was covered in rotting beefheart or other foods.

I think it's too bad you believe some of this junk, keeps you from really enjoying and knowing the pleasure of discus and discus keeping.

Sounds like a lot of "myth" regurgitation to me. I'd glad that some with actual experience is chiming in and refuting what some may consider "truth" when all it really is, is recommended best practice.

I also find it amazing that water turns toxic in a matter of 2 days. Is your tank cycled?

 

[bs6749]

And sorry, but the silliest thing you've said so far is:

In fact, I've got 8 juvies in one right now that have been in there for 2 weeks. Sure they "fit" but I know that they should be in a bigger tank soon. How do I know this? I change out at least 50% of the water every day because of the amount of waste they produce. If not changed, the water would turn toxic to the fish in a couple of days.

Water turn toxic in a few days from 8 baby discus in a 29G barebottom tank? :thud:Geez, my discus should have died a loooooooooooooong time ago. This could only be true if the bottom of the tank was covered in rotting beefheart or other foods.

I think it's too bad you believe some of this junk, keeps you from really enjoying and knowing the pleasure of discus and discus keeping.

I actually take readings of my water parameters and can back up what I am saying. I have 8 discus in my 29g tank. Four of them are 3"+SL and four of them are 3.5"+ SL. They are all still JUVIES, I never said anything about babies...something you misread. I feed them bloodworms, brine shrimp, NLS pellets 5-6 times per day. Therefore they excrete a lot of waste and this waste quickly turns into ammonia, which is toxic to discus. I find it amusing that someone "so experienced" such as yourself doesn't understand.

 

[bs6749]

Sounds like a lot of "myth" regurgitation to me. I'd glad that some with actual experience is chiming in and refuting what some may consider "truth" when all it really is, is recommended best practice.

I also find it amazing that water turns toxic in a matter of 2 days. Is your tank cycled?

You can believe what you want but I've numbers to back up what I'm saying so it's not at all myth. It's ignorance to avoid those numbers and believe what you want to believe when the "truth" is right in front of you.

A cycled sponge filter is in the tank.

 

[Star_Rider]

I actually take readings of my water parameters and can back up what I am saying. I have 8 discus in my 29g tank. Four of them are 3"+SL and four of them are 3.5"+ SL. They are all still JUVIES, I never said anything about babies...something you misread. I feed them bloodworms, brine shrimp, NLS pellets 5-6 times per day. Therefore they excrete a lot of waste and this waste quickly turns into ammonia, which is toxic to discus. I find it amusing that someone "so experienced" such as yourself doesn't understand.

if your biofilter is up to snuff then the ammonia should be reduced to nitrite then nitrate. and the build up is a mute point.

bs6749 you may want to know many of us breed fish and fully understand the cycle and filtration.

if you are seeing ammonia build up that quickly then you may want to invest in more filtration and provide more bio filtration in the tank.

while i do prefer to do 30-50% water changes in my grow out tanks...if I miss a day I do not worry about it as the bio filter is adequate to handle the load.
ammonia in a tank with the proper bioload will be rather quickly consumed by the bacteria.
btw, they excrete ammonia as waste...uneaten food breaks down and turns to ammonia.
our concern here is TDS or if you prefer TDOS in overstocked tanks(like yours and many other grow out tanks) we deal with it with water changes.