Need Advice about my African Clawed Frogs!
- Thread starter civic07si
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I don't agree.
I have seen them in deep tanks with absolutely no sign of any problems. They are very well adaptyed to swimming, many feet of water is fine.
That 4' deep tank was at a Zoo, that means very advanced scientists, not hobbyists. I take their word.
In aquariums I have seen them in the tall 65 gallons, much deeper than 12". I have also seen them in 75s, again, absolutely no sign of any issues.
Just like water turtles they are perfectly fine in many feet of water. They need space. These are frogs that can get to be 6" or more in snout-to-vent length. They should not be crammed in 20longs or given larger tanks only to cut down the depth to only a foot to a foot and a half.
Does anyone have a single case where one drowned while in more than 18" of water? Any cases that show that there was significant or even any stress with water over 18" deep?
I have seen them in deep tanks with absolutely no sign of any problems. They are very well adaptyed to swimming, many feet of water is fine.
That 4' deep tank was at a Zoo, that means very advanced scientists, not hobbyists. I take their word.
In aquariums I have seen them in the tall 65 gallons, much deeper than 12". I have also seen them in 75s, again, absolutely no sign of any issues.
Just like water turtles they are perfectly fine in many feet of water. They need space. These are frogs that can get to be 6" or more in snout-to-vent length. They should not be crammed in 20longs or given larger tanks only to cut down the depth to only a foot to a foot and a half.
Does anyone have a single case where one drowned while in more than 18" of water? Any cases that show that there was significant or even any stress with water over 18" deep?
Reptileguy, you are not getting it..... All you seem to do is want to argue with people trying to give good advice, and now you insult people on here? Just because someone is on here doesn't mean they are not marine biologists. AND, no zoo's do not always get it right, most zoos do not hire "VERY ADVANCED SCIENTISTS". They do what they can for the animals and give the best care their budgets allow. DO some research and see what's recommended for these creatures before blasting everyone and telling us we have no clue what we are talking about. You said earlier that you kept them in a 4' tank, so did you keep them or did you see them at the zoo? Get the story straight.
On a side note, just because someone's done it doesn't make it right. You seem to want to jump all over VF for keeping them in a 20 gallon, but don't seem to admit others do it wrong too. You are not always right
On a side note, just because someone's done it doesn't make it right. You seem to want to jump all over VF for keeping them in a 20 gallon, but don't seem to admit others do it wrong too. You are not always right
These guys come from shallow, oxygen deprived, stagnant pools in the wild of only a few inches to maybe a foot deep. Every care sheet on the web says to keep them in shallow water, google it and find out for yourself. But once again, you're the expert as always. I'm very sorry that you have to be this stubborn and won't except the truth. I can keep a goldfish in a bowl and it will swim around all over the place but it doesn't mean it's happy. Oh yeah, and I've seen plenty of zoos that have habitats that aren't adequate for the animals in it. Like it or not, when an animal dies the zoo keeper (aka your scientist) goes and gets another one from the back room.
This is a direct copy and paste quote from the first time I mentioned the 4' deep tank.
"I have seen them in tanks 4' tall"
It says "seen". It does NOT say that I have had them in that size tank.
All I am saying is why limit them to such small tanks? I have seen them in much larger and they were fine, seemed better than ones I have seen kept in smaller tanks. I find it hard to believe that everyone would argue so hard against bigger tanks when there is so far no information indicating that such a tank would be harmful in any way.
I have seen them in these tanks that you guys are declaring inappropriate. You guys are saying that is wrong because articles and caresheets recommend otherwise.
I am not trying to insult anyone on here. I am sharing my direct experience with the species in question and everyone else is saying it is wrong 'because', with no information that actually shows theya re at all stressed in a tank deeper than 18".
The National Zoo has them in a tank about 4' deep. My first thought when I saw that tank was the same as all of yours. I thought that was way too deep for them to be swimming up and down all the time and that they must be stressed and try to hang out up top as much as possible. A couple were hanging out in places above the bottom, but most were on the bottom. I stopped to watch that tank for a while and watched them as they went up for air. It was actually quite impressive. They gracefully made their way up, gulped, and slowly descended back to the bottom. It seemed almost effortless and very natural. So yes, when someone claims that they need to be in no more than 18" of water, I have to say that my experience completely disagrees with that. Yes, many articles may recommend shallower tanks, but what are they basing that on? These frogs are amazing swimmers, they have no problem in deep water.
These are also animals with a high bioload and many keepers can easily let water quality drop more than it should. A larger tank will help with that. It does not mean that if they get a bigger tank they can slack off on their care. It means that if life happens and they miss a water change or two, the water quality will still be better than it would in a smaller tank.
Bigger is always better. Do you need the deepest tank possible? Absolutely not. If you want to get a 30breeder as opposed to a 29, great.
Do they need to be kept in no more than 18" of water? No. In my experience I have seen and had numerous tanks with them in water of over 18" and have not seen a single indicator of stress in any of these tanks.
Please, if you have information to support that they can't be in deeper water I would be more than happy to read it. But if no one has had or read any threads on any forum about cases where these frogs were kept in water over 18" and there were issues from the depth, why keep taking articles' word for it unquestioned? Just because it is suggested in multiple articles does not make it a fact. The numemrous cases I have seen show this.
I am not trying to argue with anyone or about anything just for the sake of it. I simply question and try and correct information I see that in my experience is not true.
"I have seen them in tanks 4' tall"
It says "seen". It does NOT say that I have had them in that size tank.
All I am saying is why limit them to such small tanks? I have seen them in much larger and they were fine, seemed better than ones I have seen kept in smaller tanks. I find it hard to believe that everyone would argue so hard against bigger tanks when there is so far no information indicating that such a tank would be harmful in any way.
I have seen them in these tanks that you guys are declaring inappropriate. You guys are saying that is wrong because articles and caresheets recommend otherwise.
I am not trying to insult anyone on here. I am sharing my direct experience with the species in question and everyone else is saying it is wrong 'because', with no information that actually shows theya re at all stressed in a tank deeper than 18".
The National Zoo has them in a tank about 4' deep. My first thought when I saw that tank was the same as all of yours. I thought that was way too deep for them to be swimming up and down all the time and that they must be stressed and try to hang out up top as much as possible. A couple were hanging out in places above the bottom, but most were on the bottom. I stopped to watch that tank for a while and watched them as they went up for air. It was actually quite impressive. They gracefully made their way up, gulped, and slowly descended back to the bottom. It seemed almost effortless and very natural. So yes, when someone claims that they need to be in no more than 18" of water, I have to say that my experience completely disagrees with that. Yes, many articles may recommend shallower tanks, but what are they basing that on? These frogs are amazing swimmers, they have no problem in deep water.
These are also animals with a high bioload and many keepers can easily let water quality drop more than it should. A larger tank will help with that. It does not mean that if they get a bigger tank they can slack off on their care. It means that if life happens and they miss a water change or two, the water quality will still be better than it would in a smaller tank.
Bigger is always better. Do you need the deepest tank possible? Absolutely not. If you want to get a 30breeder as opposed to a 29, great.
Do they need to be kept in no more than 18" of water? No. In my experience I have seen and had numerous tanks with them in water of over 18" and have not seen a single indicator of stress in any of these tanks.
Please, if you have information to support that they can't be in deeper water I would be more than happy to read it. But if no one has had or read any threads on any forum about cases where these frogs were kept in water over 18" and there were issues from the depth, why keep taking articles' word for it unquestioned? Just because it is suggested in multiple articles does not make it a fact. The numemrous cases I have seen show this.
I am not trying to argue with anyone or about anything just for the sake of it. I simply question and try and correct information I see that in my experience is not true.
This is from Columbia University:
"Original Distribution: [FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The African clawed frog is native to the cooler regions of sub-Saharan Africa. Its range includes the highlands between the African Cape and the plateau of Cameroon and Nigeria, and excludes the Zaire Basin and the hotter lowlands of East Africa. The African clawed frog is an air breathing aquatic frog that occurs in virtually every body of water in its native range. It inhabits natural waters, such as rivers, lakes, ponds, marshes, rainpools, and swamps, as well as manmade waters, including reservoirs, dams, flooded pits, ditches, and wells. This frog is most commonly found in stagnant or still waters of ponds or sluggish streams, but may also inhabit fast flowing water." [/FONT]Link
Note how it explicitly states they are in virtually every body of water, not just shallow bodies of water.
Vivapets.com
"Its habitat is grassland ponds, streams, and lakes in both arid and semi-arid climates and today they can be found in many areas outside their original range." Link
National Zoo"
"Distribution and Habitat
These frogs are found along the African Rift Valley south of the Sahara in east and southern Africa. They are also found in South Africa and Namibia and Angola in western Africa. As an invasive pest species they are now found in freshwater areas all over the world.
They prefer warm stagnant pools" Link
None of these mention 'shallow' or indicate any need for shallow water.
"Original Distribution: [FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The African clawed frog is native to the cooler regions of sub-Saharan Africa. Its range includes the highlands between the African Cape and the plateau of Cameroon and Nigeria, and excludes the Zaire Basin and the hotter lowlands of East Africa. The African clawed frog is an air breathing aquatic frog that occurs in virtually every body of water in its native range. It inhabits natural waters, such as rivers, lakes, ponds, marshes, rainpools, and swamps, as well as manmade waters, including reservoirs, dams, flooded pits, ditches, and wells. This frog is most commonly found in stagnant or still waters of ponds or sluggish streams, but may also inhabit fast flowing water." [/FONT]Link
Note how it explicitly states they are in virtually every body of water, not just shallow bodies of water.
Vivapets.com
"Its habitat is grassland ponds, streams, and lakes in both arid and semi-arid climates and today they can be found in many areas outside their original range." Link
National Zoo"
"Distribution and Habitat
These frogs are found along the African Rift Valley south of the Sahara in east and southern Africa. They are also found in South Africa and Namibia and Angola in western Africa. As an invasive pest species they are now found in freshwater areas all over the world.
They prefer warm stagnant pools" Link
None of these mention 'shallow' or indicate any need for shallow water.
I caution that this thread get back on track. Arguing will not be tolerated. I hope that if the OP has more questions they are not dissuaded from the way this thread has gone. I also don't think anyone is saying more water volume is bad, they are simply saying a shallower tank is easing for the frog to breath. I, through MY personal experiences have seen both adf's and acf's have a much harder time getting to the surface in deeper tanks. I personally would rather keep them in a shallower and longer tank. More water volume is better, I would not keep them in any less than a 20 long. I am sure many of us have seen lots of exhibits that are inappropriate as well as many that are spot on. In this thread, the OP is asking for reasonable upgrade advice for 2 ACF's. Please lets keep it on track, and NOT personal. If I see any more arguing in this thread, it WILL be closed.
Unfortunately unless someone is willing to travel to Africa and spend a few weeks (months, years) observing these guys, this debate has no resolution or answer. As a side note, I have no personal experience with this species. The majority of articles and care sheets that I have read seem to indicate surface area over depth, i.e. a large shallow tank lacking current.
However, stating that because you spent 20 minutes watching some of them in a zoo and they were swimming around and not dying in a deeper tank, isn't exactly evidence to the contrary either. Considering that this species can live for somewhere betweeo 10-20 years, watching one for a few minutes or even keeping one for a year or two can't really be considered a full-on success. Questioning a given piece of data is one thing, but assuming you and you alone can "correct" it is fairly arrogant IMO. One case does not render a given hypothesis true or untrue.
So, as someone with no experience, if I were to set out to create a habitat for these guys, I would start doing research in books and online and probably come to the conclusion that most people recommend keeping them in shallow, wide tanks. If I were researching on oscars, and I found one person that said keeping them in a 30gal for life were a good idea, would I just go along with that even though 99% of the evidence (not to mention common sense) says otherwise? Of course not.
However, stating that because you spent 20 minutes watching some of them in a zoo and they were swimming around and not dying in a deeper tank, isn't exactly evidence to the contrary either. Considering that this species can live for somewhere betweeo 10-20 years, watching one for a few minutes or even keeping one for a year or two can't really be considered a full-on success. Questioning a given piece of data is one thing, but assuming you and you alone can "correct" it is fairly arrogant IMO. One case does not render a given hypothesis true or untrue.
So, as someone with no experience, if I were to set out to create a habitat for these guys, I would start doing research in books and online and probably come to the conclusion that most people recommend keeping them in shallow, wide tanks. If I were researching on oscars, and I found one person that said keeping them in a 30gal for life were a good idea, would I just go along with that even though 99% of the evidence (not to mention common sense) says otherwise? Of course not.
I think everyone has been pretty good about keeping this as a debate and not an argument. I think we have all stuck to the facts.
I want to clarify something. I am not here to discredit anyone. I am not here to be the hero and fix all the bad information from so many articles. I am here to do exactly what a forum is here for, share experience. To go beyond the basics and beyond articles, and go in to personal experience.
To clarify what my experience is: observations of them in a tank of about 4' in depth at a zoo. Repeated and extended observations of them in aquariums of depths above 18" (65 and 75 gallons). My own experience with them in full tanks of 29, 55, and 75 gallons as well as smaller tanks of the nature in question here. Out of all the tanks of excessive depth there was no indication of any stress. In all of my experience the ones in deeper and larger tanks were more active, healthier, grew better, etc. All of these are indicators of thriving. I have never personally seen any evidence that they have issues with deeper tanks. I have never seen any threads on any forums that suggested this either.
To directly address the original questioin: Yes, an upgrade is very good. I would go with at least a 29. If you would prefer to get the volume and keep it shallow with something like a 30 breeder or 30long, that is fine. If you have an extra 90 and want to try them in that or some other larger but also deeper tank, great. It is up to you what exact tank size and shape you can handle and would like to try them in.
I want to clarify something. I am not here to discredit anyone. I am not here to be the hero and fix all the bad information from so many articles. I am here to do exactly what a forum is here for, share experience. To go beyond the basics and beyond articles, and go in to personal experience.
To clarify what my experience is: observations of them in a tank of about 4' in depth at a zoo. Repeated and extended observations of them in aquariums of depths above 18" (65 and 75 gallons). My own experience with them in full tanks of 29, 55, and 75 gallons as well as smaller tanks of the nature in question here. Out of all the tanks of excessive depth there was no indication of any stress. In all of my experience the ones in deeper and larger tanks were more active, healthier, grew better, etc. All of these are indicators of thriving. I have never personally seen any evidence that they have issues with deeper tanks. I have never seen any threads on any forums that suggested this either.
To directly address the original questioin: Yes, an upgrade is very good. I would go with at least a 29. If you would prefer to get the volume and keep it shallow with something like a 30 breeder or 30long, that is fine. If you have an extra 90 and want to try them in that or some other larger but also deeper tank, great. It is up to you what exact tank size and shape you can handle and would like to try them in.
I have to disagree with you yet again, you implied that because you saw this at a zoo, and the "top scientists" put them there, we were all wrong. You were trying to trump what others are saying.
For their habitat: Confirming what VF said
http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/ReptilesAmphibians/Facts/FactSheets/Africanclawedfrog.cfm
http://www.aqua.org/frogs/choir_africanclawedfrog.html
For care
http://www.petstation.com/clfrog.html
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=17+1848&aid=3046
http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/African_Clawed_Frog
http://aquaticfrogs.tripod.com/id1.html
http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/xenopus.html
http://www.petstoreabuse.com/Caresheets/africanclawedfrog.html
Based on my college courses in Biology (yes have a degree in it) and knowing the environment they live (streams and stagnant ponds) they prefer shallow water near the shore. Can they survive in deeper water? YES. is it the best for them NO. Depending on which "national zoo" you went too, they both describe the natural habitat the same. They presented the frogs in a manner that "looks" natural but is easy to view.
The problem I now have with your statement is since seeing them in a 4' tank you never witnessed their care. Just because it's a zoo does not mean they get the care they need or are in the environment they come from.
People took the time and care to write the care sheets and species profiles for a reason. I can tell you from personal experience that most of the areas in sub Sahara where the ACF live are very shallow. Mostly streams and wading across them is rarely more than knee deep. Way under the 4' tank. it may help you to actually look at a map and look at the bodies of still water near there.
For their habitat: Confirming what VF said
http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/ReptilesAmphibians/Facts/FactSheets/Africanclawedfrog.cfm
http://www.aqua.org/frogs/choir_africanclawedfrog.html
For care
http://www.petstation.com/clfrog.html
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=17+1848&aid=3046
http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/African_Clawed_Frog
http://aquaticfrogs.tripod.com/id1.html
http://www.geocities.com/ptimlin/xenopus.html
http://www.petstoreabuse.com/Caresheets/africanclawedfrog.html
Based on my college courses in Biology (yes have a degree in it) and knowing the environment they live (streams and stagnant ponds) they prefer shallow water near the shore. Can they survive in deeper water? YES. is it the best for them NO. Depending on which "national zoo" you went too, they both describe the natural habitat the same. They presented the frogs in a manner that "looks" natural but is easy to view.
The problem I now have with your statement is since seeing them in a 4' tank you never witnessed their care. Just because it's a zoo does not mean they get the care they need or are in the environment they come from.
People took the time and care to write the care sheets and species profiles for a reason. I can tell you from personal experience that most of the areas in sub Sahara where the ACF live are very shallow. Mostly streams and wading across them is rarely more than knee deep. Way under the 4' tank. it may help you to actually look at a map and look at the bodies of still water near there.
