Neon/Cardinal Tetra Problem

[excuzzzeme]

Over the years of having Neons I have had a periodic problem that I have never solved.

On occasion they will develop a pinkish-white bump at the base of the tail that appears to be subcutaneous. Behavior appears consistent as does appetite. After about 3-4 weeks the fish becomes isolated from the shoal and eventually dies. At time of death they are usually devoid of color and are grayish.








Any ideas or experience with this?

 

[xVitox]

it might be this, i came across this a while ago doing random research
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/neondisease.htm

 

[xVitox]

i say this because of the loss of color, perhaps something else is causing the spot to be white not pink

 

[Cerianthus]

Although could be NTD but NTD usually displayed pale patches toward dorsal area.

Even though I dont see any infection or abnormality of fins, first thing popped up was Caudal Peduncle Disease caused by Cytophaga Sp. Bacteria.

Google for this bacterium for more info and images for comaparison.

Exposure to extreme pH (irritants = stress/malfunction of ther organs) can yield such disease and others. Try avoiding extreme pH.

I usually omit NH3/NO2 issues since my local fellow hobbyists experience such issues/problems very rarely once tank is well established. But again I do not know your tank and/or your experiences in fish keeping.
I am assuming your tank is well established. If not, read cycling process and testing of tank water.

How is your temp? Is it pretty steady? If in fact you think this is cases of Caudal Peduncle Disease, you will probably find that raising temp above optimal temp for Cytophaga Sp may help. This is with an assumption that it is most likely a Cytophaga Sp.

Mixing OxyTC (if not avail, use Maracyn II, not I) with food is best but fish may not be eating by the time you notice the symptoms thus would just dose the Q/T.

Secondly, other possibility is a case of Edwarsiella Septicemia. Google for more info/images.

Either case, OcyTC should work if treated at early stage.

If above treatment do not work (could be due to not being able to recognized the symptom at early stage), try 2 drops per gallon of Quick Cure(formaldehyde/malachite green) + 250 mg/10Gallon of ampicillin + 1 heaping tablespoonful/5 Gallon of aquarium salt/non- iodized table salt) in q/t.

From my experiences, successful rate of cure depends on how fast you catch the development of disease and general health of fish.
Observe other fish for changes in their behavior before visible symptoms are displayed. Perhaps by treating while they eat and/or at early stages will reneder higher recovery rates.

Hope this helped and Good Luck!

 

[excuzzzeme]

I have been able to rule out NTD and that had been my first thought. Caudal Peduncle Disease is not something I have heard of before so researching that option won't be wasted time. Septicemia is something I have considered but sort of lost track on it. This will help me to revisit that.

As far as the tank goes, it is a well established (5 years) and lightly planted. Ph usually runs 6.4-6.8. I do not dismiss Ph except that this does not appear to be bacterial although I hope I am wrong. Parameters are 0/0/10. This has happened to me once a year at the absolute most but never takes out the entire population so I question the bacterial Dx. Once the population survives it, there is no recurrence. This has happened in 2 different populations in 2 different tanks where nothing was cross-contaminated.

The cardinals (in this tank) were acclimated properly and are not overstocked (25 in a 20H tank). Sole inhabitants. They stay schooled so tight I think I could almost triple the population and still have plenty of swimming room! Certainly have common sense that dictates to not change anything until a definitive Dx. Plants are 4 different strains of Anubia all originating from the same location that I have used before without any problems.

 

[Cerianthus]

Actually such symptoms are pretty common and probably improperly handled/sold at wholesale level before they find the way into ones tank.

We were taught that gems are everywhere around us. Well think that pathogens are always present in the water, waiting for opportunity to invade weakened fish or already within fish. Healthy fish's immune system have ability produce antigens to fight off invaders but as fish get stressed/weakened, their ability to do so diminishes. Irritated gills due to exposure to extreme pH, can not function properly causing accumulation of respiratory wastes, CO2 causing pH drop in fish's blood and also accumulation of toxic ammonia in the blood since fish lacks ability to conveert ammonia into urea as we mammals are able to.
Without ginong into Physiology , can you just imagine what would happened to us if our respiration is impaired due to exposure to toxic chemicals? I really dont see the difference in fish when gills are irritated or inflammed due to exposured to extreme pH!!!!

When I split 500 cardinals into 5 randoms groups of 100 each. Even if take extra efforts to acclimate them to their specifically designed/conditioned tank water, depending on the condition of each individual's water condition, some may develop diseases and some may not even though all came from same batch.
Since water hadness were preety much the same, difference was not due to hardness but more so on prolonged exposure extreme/wrong pH for specific fish. Yes, fish can adapt, some better than others but why exposed them to extreme and hope they can adapt when we can provide ideal conditions for fish we keep???

Have you start the treatment yet on the Neon in the pic?
If you determined symptoms dont resemble the dieases mentioned above and believe a simple skin infection, kanamycin may work.

Again you can make the best comaprison.

Good Luck!

 

[excuzzzeme]

Having had a chance to review some of the descriptions of Caudal Peduncle Disease, I feel that the description in-depth comes the closest to a reasonably accurate Dx.

I will see what I can do to get some gram-negative medication. If I can't find any, I might try the Potassium Permanganate option. Should all else fail, I will freeze the fish and see if I can get my vet to to do a biopsy or at least do a slide mount of the infected site and will try to identify on my own (yes, I have a microscope, 10/100/400/1000, but don't know how to do a slide fix yet.)

Thank you for the suggestions and help. Please feel free to continue suggestions.

 

[Cerianthus]

I dont think you really have to go out of your way to vet perform biopsy. I dont know if they do or capable of doing such unless experienced in fish necropsy/fish pathology.

With an assumption that neon in the pic is not with us anymore (that means pathogens are dead as well in the freezer), you can prepared simple mount without staining procedure (staining procedure is on the live bacteria if memory serves, their ability to absorb Gram stains). Simple scarpel will do.
You can at least be able to determine the type of bacteria accoding to its shape. With this cytophaga Sp, it shoud a be a rod shape, maybe in the filament.

If memory serves, exact classification is not easy even for expert without proper facilities unless they have live infected fish on their hand where they can extract live samples to perform whatever procedures (beyond our scope) they need to perform to id the bacteria/pathogens.

Anyway, if you happened to notice another one isolating itself from group and/or hang near the top, should try the Quickcure method described above as those mixtures have indeed saved few tankful of cardinals at local wholeseller I happened to vist couple of weeks ago. Within 5 days of treatment, all their cardinals settled and experienced no further loss.

I also helped them with tankful of Scats suffering from shimming and hovering at top corner with simple treatment.

Odd enough, got a call from them few days ago to come work at their facilities, at least part time, to assist stablizing their livestock before being sold to lfs.

If meory serves, Neons are from SE Asia and Cardinals are mostly wild fish.
I rarely encountered bacterial infections with Neons when Ideal Conditions were well provided. On the other hand, I experienced Argulus problems on Neons from SE Asia pretty often. And Argulus can lead to other infections when not properly taken care of.

Cardinals/Rummys etc from SA via Florida always displayed more implications, perhaps NTD due to stress, but eventually found the way to properly acclimate them to new water and sometimes with my mixture of meds, I was able to eradicate most of their commonly occuring probelms.

If you happened to aquire more info from vet, post it as I am very curious as well(another way I can learn more).

Hope your tank settle down soon.

 

[excuzzzeme]

There is no one in my area that have fish medical experience and even the vet does not "do" fish. Since I am on my own so to speak, I want to learn as much as I can but have no idea where to start.

My problem comes in that my reading comprehension is very poor from medical reasons and I need a great deal of time and simplicity to retain it. That being said, I am able to follow and understand your posts as long as you don't get too technical.

Yes, the cardinal in the photo is still with me and we are on week 4 or 5. As I earlier stated, this is not a fast acting condition. Behavior and appetite are still normal.

Thanks for posting. You are quite helpful.

 

[petluvr]

This same thing has happened to me. I have gone from a shoal of 50+ cardinals to about 25 in the last 6 months with this same thing.