New 150 gal death trap

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kmacgibbon

Registered Member
Sep 9, 2007
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We got a 150 gal tank at the end of June for my son who has been dying to have a 'shark' for years. So, we ended up with 150 gal so he could have bala's and other 7-14" fishes. We have a few gouramis, 3 balas (4"), 2-3 each of platys (2 are preg.) and mollys, 3 serpae tetras, 2 bumblebee gobi, a few rosy barbs, 1 pleco (2" clown), 4 redline torpedo barbs (3"), and a few cats (3 pictus, 2 columbian, 1 featherfin).

It took a full 6 weeks to get the water stable and cycled. In the process, we lost a redline barb, a few gouramis, and a few cats. I was told if I used biospira, it would cycle quickly, but for whatever reason, the ammonia levels were high and we could not get them down for weeks. Since the tank cycled, we have continued to lose fish pretty much weekly - this past week losing a baby pleco and a ghost knifefish. :headshake2:

One redline and one silver molly are in QT - redline has a red (? bit by pictus?) gill that appears to either be swollen or missing a piece. He is receiving Paraguard and Melafix in QT. It did not seem to improve, so I added a dose of a parasite med and it seems slightly less red. His color is muted but he is eating a bit. The silver molly appears to be improving - his belly appeared bloated - maybe he just ate too much, not sure.

Other than one fish (redline) having dropsy (that looks horrible!), the rest that died appeared to be ok - no sign of ich or worms or rot or anything. One gourami seemed to be a bit bloated and swam at the bottom for a day before he died, but most, including one of the redlines seemed fine, then died. I took our dead blue phantom pleco and a few others to the LFS and no one can find anything of concern. I even resorted to dissecting one that died (we homeschool and I'm a nurse, so it was a learning experience!) - nothing really obvious and I did skin scrapings and did not see any parasites. (I could have missed something, of course, I'm not an expert! I tried used a fish disease book as a guide.) I looked at the gills and fins and several internal organs under the microscope and saw nothing obvious.) Bacteria maybe? :confused:

I have put at least 4 doses of Paraguard in the 150 gal tank and ordered a large container so I can do a few more. Thinking all was ok after having no deaths for a week or so, we bought a couple little plecos (bristle nose and clown) and upside down cats to replace those we lost. They lived in a QT tank for 3 weeks getting several Paraguard treatments and close observation. The water in that tank was ok overall - I checked it pretty much daily, but the nitrite levels would not stay down (at stress level, not very high), so I got the QT tank and the 150g at the same temp and moved the cats and plecos to the big tank. One of the plecos died a few days later. The other 3 seem to be fine so far.

I have had my water checked by different LFS with nearly each death, and check it myself often - at least 2x per week - and have added biospira and done numerous water changes - at least one a week except after adding biospira. My water looks great - no ammonia or nitrates/nitrites, neutral pH, temp 77, no white cloud, some algae clouding but I put a little AlgaeFix in there. I have an UG filter and 2 cannisters, one rated for 100 gallons and one for 250 or so, along with 3 powerheads, a few live plants and several faux plants, and lots of hiding places.

What am I doing wrong? We have lost a few hundred dollars in fish and I'm getting so frustrated and feel terrible that these fish may be suffering! Some of the fish are the original ones added with lots of biospira at the start and they seem to be growing nicely - bala's, pictus, redlines, and a few gouramis. I feed them a lot of variety - we have several different sinking and floating pellets (tiny and medium) and wafers, flakes, frozen bloodworms, dried fish, etc. We feed a little of a few each day, 2-3x per day. Usually they go crazy and eat most all in minutes. The sinking pellets take a bit longer. We also have algae wafers for the pleco. If the food is not eaten quickly, we skip a feeding or just do a tiny amount, so the nitrates don't build.

I use Tetra's water conditioner and have added some probiotics, vitamins, and Stresszyme (have used with each new fish and in QT) after some of the water changes. What am I missing? I didn't QT my first fish purchases and thought perhaps one brought a parasite or bacteria to the tank and made the others sick. I thought the Paraguard would remedy that. I talked to SeaChem and they said to QT all new fish for a month with daily Paraguard. That is what I basically did with the upside down cats and plecos. Still one died. I'm baffled. The knifefish looked great then started hiding and not coming out for his fav blood worms. We found him dead a few days later. UGH! :wall:

Anyone have ideas? Sorry this is so long - tried to think of all the questions you might ask. Water has been perfect by testing for about a month or longer. I can't stand losing all these great fish!!!!!!!! Please help!:help:
 
Unless your tank is extremely heavily planted or you are doing all but constant water changes, your tank should lways indicate some level of nitrates.

What media do you have in the canister filters?

For me, it sounds like a soup you are brewing with all those additives.

Also, chaeck the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels on your tap water.

You mention the tank took six weeks to cycle...that was a fishy or fishless cycle? Even with bio-spira added, it sounds like you added quite the bio-load all at once and if it took weeks to get ammonia down, you may have caused a fair amount of damage to all the fish's gills.
 
Yikes stop with the chemicals! I'm dead serious - the only chemicals I ever add to my water would be conditioner (Prime, Amquel, etc) and plant fertilizers. Unless I'm treating for specific diseases (which should only be in a qt tank anyway!) or dealing with the extremely rare case of a fish needing a little mela or pima fix, I see no reason to add anything else.

Like rbishop says, you did add quite a bioload. It is not good to add too many fish at once - especially on a newer tank. I've found that no matter how "cycled" a new tank is, there is always some instability for its first few months of operation. Honestly I suspect there is something else at work aside from the nitrogen cycle in fish tanks that makes really old ones far more stable.

That being said, I often express my distaste for Biospira. It's not because the product doesn't do what it says - I have heard enough convincing evidence from knowledgeable people to the affirmative - but I dislike it because I feel it's sort of a dangerous temptation for newbies. The whole notion of "add your fish immediately; no waiting!" is a potential disaster waiting to happen if you are recent to the hobby and possibly not aware of things like stocking too many fish too soon and the ammonia spikes that can result. It's unfortunately a very common occurrence what you are going through...so don't feel bad. And you came to the right place to get help. People on here are pretty cool and know their stuff.

My suggestions are as follows:

Stop using all the chemicals. Like I said earlier, the only ones you need are to dechlorinate your water and to feed your plants. Algae is best dealt with naturally...or possibly not at all. I feel many of us make an unnecessary stink about this perfectly natural and normal aquatic life form. A little bit of algae doesn't hurt anything. Not nearly as much as algaecide will.

Don't add any more fish for a while. Not until all of this is stable and in order.

Do some good thorough water changes to get rid of those chemicals you've been adding. You might want to use activated carbon in your filters for a while to help get it out.

Get a qt tank and do not add any fish to your tank without keeping them in qt for at least two weeks or more. By never introducing parasites and diseases, you will never have to worry about them ruining your nice big tank.

Don't listen to SeaChem telling you to use their crap in your qt tank. They're just trying to make you buy stuff and use it up so you have to buy more. The idea of a qt tank is mainly for observation - and 90% of the time the fish (if you get them from a good store) will be absolutely fine. Only if you see something (ick, fungus, infections, etc) do you begin medicating. In my many years of fish keeping, only once have I ever had to treat fish in qt for anything. A case of ick to be exact. And I cleared it with heat and aquarium salt. Therefore all in all, I have spent maybe two or three dollars on medication for fish in qt since I became more serious and knowledgeable in this hobby. I don't even want to imagine how much I would have spent by now on Paraguard if I followed SeaChem's "advice."

Which leads to this: beware of almost all claims made by manufacturers when it comes to medications, foods, you name it. These are business intending to sell you products. The majority of which you will never, ever need and many of which do absolutely nothing. This is another newbie pitfall - the belief that you can just add this or that to your tank and it will "take care" of whatever issues might be developing. It's simply not true. And most of the time, there are no issues to be dealt with. In fact, I can't remember ever using a single chemical you have listed on your post. The only way to treat diseases, parasites, etc is to identify exactly what it is and medicate carefully and accordingly. Putting in a whole bunch of stuff as "prevention" will only cause more issues.

Same goes for foods. I hardly feed my fish more than three to four times a week. You'll find almost all of the other experienced keepers will agree with this. Feed only as much as they will eat within a few minutes, and do it once a day at the most; preferably a little less. Your fish will be perfectly happy and you will be much happier too with less waste in your tank to cause issues. It's good that you're feeding a variety of foods but do it more by rotation than by combination.

(This is an opinion and some will want to debate it) - but lose the UGF filter. They are just far more trouble than they are worth, and you have more than enough filtration with your canisters already.

Hope this helps you a bit. It's a constant learning experience built on mistakes. So don't feel bad or get too frustrated with it. I killed a few fish in my days as a newbie. I'm sure all of us have.
 
i agree with tomany chemicals, I only use the following for ALL of my tanks without one fish loss unless killed by another fish, i use "tetra aquasafe conditioner, aquarium salt when treating a tank for disease, and pimafix/melafix when i add any new fish such as feeders or when i need to treat for diseases".

How much water are you changing and how often? i do 30% weekly in each tank every sunday. I run water test every saturday to see if i need to do a bigger water change. Again I have yet to lose any of my fish unless they are killed by another one of my fish(i.e. total damage from an attack).
 
Im not sure why everyone has such a big deal with chemicals being added to tank water. Most are designed to help your fish not harm them by making there enviroment more hospitable. I use mainly seachem products, Prime, Stability, Flourish, Cichlid Trace and Clarity and never lost a fish from it yet. Infact all my fish look brighter and happier than when I bought them. Also due to my tap water being very hard the phosphate and nitrate levels are high from the off so I also use rowaphos in my filter to reduce phosphates from 5 to 0.5 and tetra nitrate minus to reduce my nitrates from 75mg/l to 25mg/l. Before I started using the last 2 products my tank would be thick with algae within 3 days, now it isn't so there is something to be said about chemicals being used if needed. If they were bad for you fish they wouldn't be on the market!
 
Thanks

Hi - thanks for the ideas. I cover the tank with a sheet at night to keep the light out in the early morning when the sun hits the room where it is. It is not even close to the window but the sun can hit the top for a short bit from the upper window. Marineland said their microfiltration media would get a lot of the algae spores out - so that is what I have in there. In the XP4 Fluval, I have the ceramic things and black stars, ammocarb, micro and macro pads, and a few ammo removers (zeolite/carbon). OH and chemipure - which was suggested recently.

That is humorous, I had not thought of it sounding like soup! :silly: Thankfully, those have been added over time, not all at once. With the biospira, I was told it was made such that you could add a bunch of fish all at one time. I did not fully stock the tank, but I put some nice fish in and several died. That was an expensive mistake. I

I added enough biospira for the 150g tank, then a day later, I was told I had to add more because the bacteria in the first bags were probably dead since the tank was empty. Oops. Anyway, I added 2 more. Then a month later, after many water changes of 25-35%, I added a little more in hopes of getting the ammonia level down. I have not added any since and it seems stable since there has not been any ammonia spikes in weeks. how does it harm their gills - the ammonia, right?

If I lose the UGF, will I need airstones or something? I understand the UGFs are a controversy in this hobby.

My tap water is good as far as ammonia, chlor, nitrites, etc. We have well water. I did add a little aquarium salt as I was instructed by the LFS. The water is very soft.

I do water changes of 10-20% weekly. Maybe I need to do more with the algae? I know some algae is ok, but I worry that it will make oxygenation difficult for them. It also seems like the sides are accumulating algae quickly - meaning a lot of cleaning.

When I set up my QT tank, the nitrite/nitrate levels were elevated but not the ammonia. That water was from the large tank. Ultimately I had to do a huge water change and use fresh water so it would not be too stressful for them.

On that note, when I do water changes, how do I keep from stressing the fish with the water coming in - via the siphon type filler - being at a different temp? I go slow and watch the temp constantly on a digital thermometer, then add a little warmer water to keep the temp stable. I always pour the water near the power heads and away from the fish. With this big of a tank, filling buckets to do a 25% change is a lot of work. I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks again for the help! I'm thrilled to have some input from people not trying to make money from me! I will empty the filter water tonight and do another water change and see if that helps. How much of the filtration media should I change at one time in the cannister? I know the importance of the good bacteria in there.
 
waynecav said:
Im not sure why everyone has such a big deal with chemicals being added to tank water. Most are designed to help your fish not harm them by making there enviroment more hospitable. I use mainly seachem products, Prime, Stability, Flourish, Cichlid Trace and Clarity and never lost a fish from it yet. Infact all my fish look brighter and happier than when I bought them. Also due to my tap water being very hard the phosphate and nitrate levels are high from the off so I also use rowaphos in my filter to reduce phosphates from 5 to 0.5 and tetra nitrate minus to reduce my nitrates from 75mg/l to 25mg/l. Before I started using the last 2 products my tank would be thick with algae within 3 days, now it isn't so there is something to be said about chemicals being used if needed. If they were bad for you fish they wouldn't be on the market!
Click to expand...

Are you kidding me! ..."If they were bad for you fish they wouldn't be on the market!" That is the whole reason they are on the market! The manufacturer doesn't care about the fish only about the product that they have for sale.

Marinemom
 
1 - look into getting a Python water change/syphon system - it will make your life worlds easier.

2 - I do 50% water changes per week on all my tanks, from 5gal to 200. With fish like you have that are going to get fairly large, I would look at bare minimum of 25% per week. Will be enabled by point #1.

3 - Have you read the article about cycling and all that fun stuff?

Nitrits of any level are stressful to the fish; if they don't stay at 0, then your tank is probably not completely cycled. What do you do when you clean the filters? If you are cleaning all the media in them, just swish them around in tank water to rinse them off, you don't want to kill off your bacteria colonies every week when you clean the tank.
 
You do not have to change the media in the canister at all unless it is literally falling apart or has been contaminated in some way that cannot be gotten rid of. You can however rinse the media that is in the canisters in old tank water which has been removed from a water change.

Marinemom
 
take the ammo carb out and any other ammonia removers out. the ammonia is essential to the cycling process, by removing it you may have to start your cycle over again, but my guess is that you've starved your bacteria.

you need to do much larger water changes.. 30 to 50% each week.. and if you see ammonia when you take out the ammonia removers, then you need to do as much as often as possible to keep the ammonia below .25

the small water changes is likely the cause of the algea problems.. too much nitrate builds up and that's what algea eats. that in conjunction with too much light will make algea go crazy. but you're correct, a little bit of algea is not a problem as long as it doesn't bother you. the nitrate could be causing poor health in the fish.
for water changes, i strongly recommend a python. it hooks up to your faucet (sink, bathroom or even an outdoor hose faucet) makes things go MUCH faster. here's a link: http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl3684/cp18377/si1380554/cl0/pythonnospillcleanandfill25
 
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