New Car Incentives

happychem said:
The argument of safety in driving a bigger vehicle is a fallacy. Yes, it's true that it you're in the bigger vehicle you're safer. But if the trend was for everyone to start driving smaller, more sensible vehicles then collisions would more likely be between smaller vehicles and not small vs. large.

While there are some very good uses for 4x4s and SUVs, my parents for example need one because where they live they'll often be driving through a foot of snow, or towing a trailer load of wood, etc. However, I doubt that 90% of the SUV drivers that I see in the city can make the same argument. I'll never argue with anyone owning one who puts it to good use, heck, even if it's just a lot of recreational offroading. But if you just want to drive around in a big truck because it's fashionable (or you saw one in a hip-hop video), then I'll argue. :D
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yes this i agree with...I know two people at work who own Hummers and they do not use it for anything besides driving back and forth to work by themselves! they do not own a boat, a horse trailer or have a large family. they bought the Hummer because it looked cool and they just have too much money....
it is funny to watch them try and park their Hummers in our compact spaces at work though.
 
A buddy of mine has a few Hummers: The real ones, not the P Diddy "I bought this because I want to look tough" H2's. We're talking military-surplus H1's. We drive those suckers through water well, WELL over the hood. Truly indestructable vehicles.

Happy, I don't think you can say that being safer in a larger vehicle is a fallacy. While it is true that there is always going to be a vehicle on the road that is bigger than yours, size does matter. Much of the safety information comparing large vehicles to small vehicles is based on platforms from the 70's and 80's when crumple zones, ergonomics, and seatbelts weren't quite understood the way they are now. I agree that we should all be good stewards and look out for fellow drivers. I do this by not speeding or trying to drive my truck the same way many drivers of those little tiny Civcs and Jettas drive. You don't know the number of times I've been braking at a red light while pulling something heavy and had one of these little cars pull in front of me and make me stop short. Now, keeping that in mind, should I feel bad if someone in a much smaller vehicle cuts in front of me and leaves me with no option but to climb on top of their trunk? I think I would sleep okay that evening, providing I did everything I could to avoid an accident. After all, on the water the less agile vessel has the right of way.
 
FishSeller, I think that you missed my point. What I meant was the argument that "I need to drive a larger vehicle to feel/be safe" argument is a fallacy, not that larger vehicles aren't safer.

My point is that people often say that they buy the big truck for safety reasons, so that if they're in an accident they'll "win" (so to speak). This statement is rediculous. It's not an issue of whether or not the bigger/heavier vehicle is likely to come out better, that's simple physics. It's an issue of mentality, the argument only holds because there are other people out there thinking that way. If people only bought big vehicles because they had a legitimate need for them there would be less of them on the road. Ergo, most accidents would be between people in similar sized, smaller vehicles. That is, unless there's some reason why people with bigger vehicles are worse drivers and get in more accidents...

To look at in from a different perspective, if folks bought vehicles sized to suit their needs and not based on likelihood of collision with another, larger vehicle then the average sized vehicle on the road would decrease, and collisions would more likely be between vehicles of similar size.

From yet another perspective, do you ("you" being the nonspecific referring to anyone reading this) want to admit to yourself that you're the type of person who purchases a vehicle in hopes of crushing someone else? Because if you're concerned about a collision with a vehicle of matching size, then we're right back to the original point of everyone driving smaller, more fuel efficient cars.

So the "safety" argument only applies to one who only plans to collide with people in smaller cars. If they're "at fault" one might argue that they "got what they deserved". But accidents are often the result of a mistake, true, someone is to blame for the mistake, but the point is that accidents aren't always the result of someone being so utterly assinine that they "deserve" to be crushed. There are some out there, but it's a minority, although I would open the floor up to discussion as to whether talking on the cell while driving constitutes being assinine or not. ;)

I'm not arguing that you (now I'm being specific of you, FishSeller) shouldn't drive a truck. You clearly use it like a truck and have a legitimate need for one. See my first post...
 
My best argument for larger vehicles? I have rather nasty arthritis in my knee. It kills me to get in and out of a car...give me a SUV, truck or minivan any day. Not the really large trucks or SUVs...then you have to climb up...the small to mid size are fine. There are a lot of folks in that catagory. My husbands grandmother had arthritis in her hips...she could get in the truck, but not the car. Same with my uncle. He's wheelchair bound, but can transfer in and out of a mini van. Even tho he's in a nursing home now, my folks kept his minivan becasue they can't get him into anything else.
I had to drive my husband's Intrepid for a weekend and was in agony by the time he got home, I usually drive a MItsubishi MOntero sport. So...think before you criticize people for driving big gas guzzling vehicles. There may be a reason why.
I've long admired convertibles...but doubt I'll ever get one now. Just ahve to settle for a moon roof.
 
happychem said:
My point is that people often say that they buy the big truck for safety reasons, so that if they're in an accident they'll "win" (so to speak). This statement is rediculous. If people only bought big vehicles because they had a legitimate need for them there would be less of them on the road. Ergo, most accidents would be between people in similar sized, smaller vehicles.
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And yet we can't control what other people are driving. So today, right now, driving something that weighs 2,900 pounds is a very poor crash choice, based on the real-life physics of the average sized vehicle on the road TODAY.

Your argument *COULD* work, but that's not how it is.

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nursie said:
My best argument for larger vehicles? I have rather nasty arthritis in my knee. It kills me to get in and out of a car...give me a SUV, truck or minivan any day. Not the really large trucks or SUVs...then you have to climb up...the small to mid size are fine. There are a lot of folks in that catagory. My husbands grandmother had arthritis in her hips...she could get in the truck, but not the car. Same with my uncle. He's wheelchair bound, but can transfer in and out of a mini van. Even tho he's in a nursing home now, my folks kept his minivan becasue they can't get him into anything else.
I had to drive my husband's Intrepid for a weekend and was in agony by the time he got home, I usually drive a MItsubishi MOntero sport. So...think before you criticize people for driving big gas guzzling vehicles. There may be a reason why.
I've long admired convertibles...but doubt I'll ever get one now. Just ahve to settle for a moon roof.
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I like my Honda CR-V for that reason (not because of arthritis, but overall comfort.) Even though it's a car base (V4 engine), it is higher off the ground...much better seating position, easier to get in and out (especially getting the kids in and out of their seats), plus the vantage point is much better than with a car. Only problem we have with it is that it can't tow anything. We need to upgrade to a bigger gas-guzzler to tow a tent trailer. I'm still resisting though...I don't really want to own a minivan...at least not yet. :p:
 
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I guess the biggest deal for me is I've never owned a vehicle that pulled something like 30 miles to the gallon. My first truck got about 8 mpg. I owned two Broncos that pulled around 10 mpg., then went to diesel that gets 18-20 mpg. As far as I'm concerned, I'm driving a hybrid! For a lot of people, fuel is just an "added cost" when it comes to basic living expenses. I would imagne that going from a car that got 400 miles on a 15 gallon fuel tank to a vehicle that pulled 300 miles on a 30 gallon fuel tank would give the operator some level of sticker shock.
 
mvigor said:
And yet we can't control what other people are driving. So today, right now, driving something that weighs 2,900 pounds is a very poor crash choice, based on the real-life physics of the average sized vehicle on the road TODAY.

Your argument *COULD* work, but that's not how it is.
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No, that's just the point. Your argument is cicular logic. It has no validity outside of itself. In other works if people stopped buying large vehicles for no reason better than the "safety argument" but instead made their choices based on more rational concepts such as need and fuel efficiency then there wouldn't be a need the larger vehicle for safety.

Besides, smaller, more manoevrable vehicles should be better at avoiding accidents so long as their drivers are attentive. There's no point in arguing for inattentive drivers, if a driver is inattentive it's all the more reason we don't want them driving something heavy.
 
Well I chose middle ground as far as I'm concerned. Right now there are Excursions and Expeditions and H2s on the road weighing a LOT more than my car, plus the F350s and such.

With my low, long, RWD, semi-heavy car I have all the maneuverability I need along with just enough extra weight to live through a crash with the BIG BOYS, while at the same time I'm small enough to let the mid size crowd walk away and the compact owners live through it.

Oh yeah, also please let me know when you figure out how to make your dream plan come true and convince EVERYONE to get a smaller car all at once.
 
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