new new person needs help with fantails

[dinkie99]

HI all,

New person here, and hope someone can help me. I have different types of fancy goldfish - 1 black moor, 1 butterfly tail, 1 red oranda, 2 calico ryukin, 1 bronze ryukin and 1 red ryukin. 3 foot tank approx 120 litres and all fish approx same size - 5cm body + tail. I have a heater set at 24 degrees which I put on in winter as where my tank is is near my laundry and I get concerned with heaters or dryers causing temp fluctuations.

My concern is that ever since I got my 3 foot tank I seem to have fish that chase each other all the time - sometimes to the point of exhaustion and even dying from stress. Today is a perfect example. I bought the red ryukin and a calico and both looked happy and fine when I brought it home. Went out and when I got home other fish are constantly chasing the red one - including the calico which is also new so I didn't think it's a territory thing. The bronze ryukin is the only fish that I have bred from fry, and he does a lot of chasing too. My mum has the same size tank, similar types and number of fish but hers never chase each other. The only thing different in her setup is she never uses a heater. Why is it that as soon as a fish comes into my tank it has the need to chase or it gets chased? Is the water temp causing this? What temp should I have the water to keep a steady temp year round but stop spawning behaviour? I had a white fan 2 months ago which chased so many other fish till they dies I took him back to pet shop thinking the problem that he was a fan and others were ryukins, but even my ryukins chase each other to death. Every aquarium I ask tells me something else, but I hope someone can help...

 

[Lupin]

:welcome: to AC, Dinkie!

Considering you have the same problem as many other goldfish enthusiasts here did, I decided to trawl through my old posts and paste here important details that you need to know to save me time to work on your other issues.

With fancy goldfish, a general guideline would be 15g per fish and that includes all your goldies which means at least 125g would be your bare minimum. Pond types such as shubunkins, comets and common goldfish require at least 20g per fish as these ones generally are feistier, larger and require more space to swim around. The fancy ones can reach at least 8-10 inches depending on the water conditions provided for them. Your fancies would surely reach 7-8 inches in time if they were housed in at least 125g with plenty of feedings and water changes. I really suggest you should start planning a tank upgrade. If this is not an option due to space, you have to sell the rest and stick to only two. How long have you kept the older goldies? For financial issues, Craiglist is your best bet for deals (assuming you're in US).

I am confident however you still can keep goldfish properly if you take the steps accordingly and correctly. Do you have a test kit? Do you know the water parameters of your tank? If not, you really need a test kit particularly the liquid based ones by API due to their reliability and accuracy. Test strips are grossly inaccurate and should be avoided at all costs. You could invest in API liquid master test kit at $20-40 range. It will last you a year and it will give you assurance your water conditions are safe for the fish. This may help you as well discover that it may not just be constant harassment that cause their demise but whacked out water parameters. With seven small goldfish, I am certain your water parameters would easily get out of safe range particularly elevated ammonia and nitrite.

Have you read about cycling yet? If not, I recommend reading this thread. Plenty of options and details are available there to help you know what cycling is all about.

Here's a chart of the nitrogen cycle obtained from another forum but it certainly helps give you a better understanding of what nitrogen cycle is.


Could you please tell us what you feed your fish and how often? How often do you change your water and how much? Water changes certainly help but in most cases, water changes will help only to an extent (and in severe disease outbreaks, it will not) but nothing is still better than the clean water quality maintained through lots of water changes as part of the basic maintenance regimen needed for healthy fish.

As for newly introduced fish, your older goldfish have already established in your setup and therefore, felt their territory is being trespassed by new ones. This also happens with tropical groups. They mark a setup as their territory and will harass new "intruders". One way to avoid this, is by introducing the new fish in the dark (when others become inactive or "asleep") or try to distract the old ones with food (assuming you have plenty of hiding places for the new ones to hide for the time being).

As fancies prefer their temperature a tad warmer, 24 degrees Celsius is fine. Of course, the higher the temperature, the faster their metabolism and the faster they grow but this is also compensated by their shorter lifespan as a result.

If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask!:cheers:

 

[dixienut]

:welcome:

 

[Kashta]

Hello dinkie. Welcome to AC! We're very happy you've joined the site.

I'm glad you posted the question, dinkie. There are a few things that cause this chasing behaviour and you've touched on most of them. The most serious issue leading to this is the fact that your tank is severely overcrowded for the number of goldfish stocked there. An overstocked tank leads to aggression, even in goldfish. (Will talk more about that below). Another factor that triggers aggression and chasing is when the temperature is kept too warm. This raises goldies' metabolism to a hyperactive state and can also cause health problems... not just aggression. The third main cause for chasing is courtship behaviour. While this is just normal activity and the female can sometimes get injured from all the chasing, it shouldn't be happening so intensely that your fish are literally killing each other. You do have some very important considerations to think about with your present setup and stocking level.

To avoid disasterous health problems, stunting, drastically shortened lifespans, and serious behavioral problems with these fish, you will need a much larger tank setup. And I'm talking MUCH larger than what you have. That is, fancy goldfish need a minimum of 15 gallons of water per fish for them to grow and develop normally even from a very small size. That's 56.78 liters.

These fish will each grow to 8-12 inches long and have a natural lifespan of 15-20 years.. or longer... but only if they are kept under proper conditions. And the growth rate in juveniles is staggering.. goldies can reach 80% of their adult size within their first year of life.

In a tank that's too small or that is overcrowded, these fish naturally produce a growth-inhibiting hormone that forces their bodies to stay abnormally small. This is where the dangerous belief comes from that they will only grow to the size of their environment. What most people don't understand who haven't actually been keeping goldfish successfully for more than 2-3 years at a time is... the restricted growth happens only with their body. Their eyes and their internal organs keep growing inside bodies that are too small for them. That's why stunting becomes such a horrible health problem. The longer this goes on and the more severe this stunting becomes, the insides get compressed to a point that the fish cannot survive.

For you to adequately stock 7 fancy goldfish together would require a tank size of at least 105 gallons (397 liters). The tank you have can only be used for 2 fancies. I strongly urge you to consider a substantial upgrade in equipment if you want to keep these fish... otherwise, you should find new homes for them where someone can give them proper care. (As you mentioned that you've just bought some of them today, you may still be able to return them.)

Your 24 degree tank temperature is okay, but it could be a little cooler. I would not say the temp is high enough to cause the level of aggression you have seen.

One other thing I should mention about chasing is this is not typical territorial behaviour. Goldfish normally have a very peaceful disposition and do not get aggressive with each other over territories. They are highly social with each other and you will see specimens that take on more of a lead role with others more often following along, but not what you've described in your post.

 

[dinkie99]

thanks

thanks for the welcomes and advice. I would like to ask though, if my Mum and I can go to a shop and buy a fish each from the same tank, yet when we get them home my one is agressive but hers adapts happily in her tank, why would this happen? Like I said my mum have the size tanks, fisah etc, only difference is I use a heater. You mentioned the raised temp can speed up metabolism and therefore cause some agression but not as severe as I get. I regularly test PH, keeping it slightly on the alkaline side of neutral. I also do water changes - about 40 litres per change every 2-3 weeks, and clean my bio-chemical filter every couple of months - 2-3 monthly say. Foodwise I was previously told to feed fancies esp larger bodied ones sinking pellets and bloodworm, then another aquarium told me that is the worst diet ever as it's too protein based -see what I mean? Different aquarium = conflicting advice. After the latest "no no" advice on feeding I have started feeding only once a day, using goldfish flakes which I submerge into the water to stop the fish swallowing air. I give them bloodworm only once a week now and pellets every 3rd day or so. I just know when I had 5 fish in a 2 foot tank I never had these agression problems ever, yet now I can bring a fish home and it's chasing older fish within hours of entering my tank, or even chasing another fish that has only arrived that day...very confused...

 

[Lupin]

24 degrees Celsius isn't necessarily high and is okay with fancies considering fancy ones prefer their temperature a little warmer. My temperature is that way too. Funnily enough, my own goldfish get along all the time especially new ones so I would think your goldfish may oddly be domineering but this is one of the probable causes. Yes, goldfish have their own personalities. They are far smarter than most people give them credit for including this 3-second memory myth.

Your problem here why the aggression seems evident, is your tank is already overstocked. Even your mother's tank may need to be upgraded too despite the different experiences. Like they say, no two things are the same. This applies to just about everything. They may be young at 2 inches but they needed all the space and with seven goldies, I would aim for a tank upgrade as Kashta and I recommended to you earlier. Your tank fits only two. Either tank must be upgraded or the five others have to be rehomed. I know it is painful to rehome the fish you love but under this circumstance, your fish's health is being compromised by overcrowded conditions.

To be honest, your water changes are very inadequate. Do you have a test kit for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? I would not be surprised if your nitrate is extremely high. With goldfish being heavy waste producers, even with once a day feeding, 24 degrees temperature and in a tank that small, I would be doing water changes by four times a week (for sufficient filtration) or daily (if filtration is inadequate) with at least 60-70% water volume replaced. My experience with goldfish in small tanks even for quarantine purposes, was horribly tedious but I beared with it because I know my goldfish are now under my responsibility and I made it my priority and obligation to do as many water changes as possible to keep my goldfish comfortable.

Now in regards to your food queries, could you please tell us the brand of food you used, ingredients and guaranteed analysis? With fancy goldfish, most foods especially those with fillers, are obviously wrong choice as some have too much starches that when digested, they produce gas which if trapped in the GI tract especially with deep round bodied strains, can cause swim imbalance that hinders their ability to swim properly.

Floating foods have caused a lot of debates as they were often thought to be responsible for the swim bladder disorders. It could happen but this is just one of the probable causes aside from the wrong ingredients used. I use floating goldfish pellets to coincide with the large menu my goldfish get and none of mine ever have issues (knock on wood). Some goldies though get floaty when you feed them floating pellets so I would exercise necessary precaution by using floating foods less and more on sinking brands. Gel foods work and one in particular recommended, is Mazuri. There's also Dainichi and Hikari. Hikari Lionhead is a sinking brand that encourages wen growth for orandas, ranchus, lionheads and lionchus.

Hope this helps!