New Setup - Advice and Questions

[Clurin]

I recently purchased a new setup from a local fish store (Tropic Isle in eastern MA). One of the staff discussed how to setup the tank, and recommended a number of items (and explained WHY he was recommending them! :thm. I ended up with the following:

38 Gallon Rectangular tank 36"L x 12"W x 18"T
Penguin Power Filter 350
200 Watt Submersible Heater
40lbs Natural Gravel
Full Hood with 24" Fluorescent Tube
PH Test and Adjustment Kit
Aquarium Salt
Dechlorinator

I set up the tank after rinsing the gravel thoroughly, then placed my initially sparse fixtures (1 jumbo plant, group of small ground cover, large piece of drift wood, and a piece of stone with a few holes). The PH was high at first, 7.4+, so it took a while to lower it to 6.8 (store's recommendation).

I added significantly more fixtures the next day, then let the tank run until the following evening when I returned and found the same store employee and enquired about my starter fish. I had been doing some reading, and although I'm interested in fish like Angels, I wanted some more smaller, active fish that would end up not getting along with them. So, after looking around, I chose the following (with advice on how many, and which fish are okay with each other):

6 Tiger Barb
3 Palaetus (sp?) Cory Cats
2 Sunset Thicklip Gourami

I brought my new pets home, floated them in the tank for 20 minutes, added some of the tanks water to their bags, then added them to the tank (I discarded the water from their bags). I added the cats, then the gourami, and then the barbs.

Everything has been going great since. The cats are active, the barbs school, and the gourami hang out together.

I have a couple questions, though.

My barbs are very skittish and swim as fast as the can to the back corners of the tank when I walk up to the tank. How can I get them to "trust" me, and stay in the open a little more when I am around?

Also, when it comes time in 30-40 days to add some more fish, what would be some good choices? I was thinking of adding 3 Green Tiger Barb, a school of Black Phantom Tetra (6-9) and maybe 1-2 more Gourami of a different type (3 Spot or Pearl, I think). Would these fish be okay in this tank? The associate at the store said the tetra would be okay with the barbs. How many fish of this size can my tank reasonably hold? Should I add them in batches? Maybe 7 fish in 30-40 days, and the final 6-7 15-30 days after that?

When should I do my first partial water change? Should I start this weekend, or hold off for longer while the tank cycles? Since my tap water's PH is so high, should I try lowering it before adding it to the tank?

Sorry this is so long. I thank you in advance for any help or advice you can offer me. ^^ Also, the link in my signature has pictures of the tank.

 

[kveeti]

First, how exactly did you lower your Ph? With the “adjustment kit”? The store’s recommendation was wrong. The only reason to lower Ph would be if you were going to breed certain kinds of fish. It is far better to have a steady Ph than a fluctuating one. You will just get a yo-yo effect with the adjustment kit and that’s far worse for your fish than leaving well enough alone.

You need test kits for ammonia and nitrIte. Get them now. Your tank is not cycled, you will have to be doing mega-water changes, daily, as soon as you start registering ammonia.

You state “Also, when it comes time in 30-40 days to add some more fish” – you can’t add more fish on a timeframe like this if your tank is not cycled and that will probably take a lot longer than 30-40 days. Get the aforementioned test kits for ammonia and nitrIte. Read about cycling in the ‘sticky’ at the top of the page. Make sure you understand what it is.

 

[bubbles42151]

^ totally right. you have started out with way to many starter fish and you need to understand the meaning of cycle A.S.A.P! altering your ph chemically is not such a hot idea. you should look into getting fish that thrive in that ph, or lower it naturally. for example: peat moss filtration or some bogwood. as for water changes they do not affect the speed of the cycle but they do affect the amount of ammonia (fish waste) nitrite and nitrates in the water which need to be kept at an absolute minimum or they can become lethal to your fishies. with your tank specs your looking at maybe 50% every other day or every three days. you should seroiusly think about returning some of those fish until you can get your tank cycled. :shark: V very true zazz.

 

[zazz]

Hi!
fun, isn't it?

just a partial answer.
7.4 is Fine. I would refrain from messing with it any more in the future.
PH changing chemicals result in unstable ph levels and that is Very hard on fish.
When to do the first partial water change will be determined by the ammonia level in the tank. As essential as ph test kit are ammonia,nitrite, nitrate tests.
Fish waste and other things in the tank create ammonia in the water. ammonia is very toxic to fish.
after a while, bacteria colonize in the tank that will convert that ammonia to nitrite which is also toxic ot fish.
Eventually, different bacteria will convert this into nitrates, which are relatively safe for fish within reasonable levels.
(All of this converting etc is called the nitrogen cycle and you should look it up. It is really important to know about with a new tank.)
Until these bacteria are present in sufficient number, YOU will be the one to remove ammonia, and later nitrites, from the water.
So, get a test kit ( a lot of people here strongly prefer the aquarium pharmacuticlas brand, its cheaperonline, but you dont have time to wait, it is available at the fish store) Test the ammonia and remove enough water, often enough to keep the level down below .25 (preferably 0)
You may hear that wtaer changes that are too frequent, or two large are stressfull to the fish or detrimental in some way, don't beleive it. PWC up to and including back to back 50% may be necessary to keep your levels down to levels that are safe for the fish and they are fine.
that is a very rough sketch of 'cycling' a tank. you will find tons f info about it hee and elsewhere.
I have never kept barbs, but in general, If the conditions in the tank are healthy, the fish will calm down and tame with time and routine. Its nice idea to put your lights on a timer, ad habitually feed at same time,place. low lights help calm a lot of fish. dont tap the tank *s. they will get used to their new environment.
Sounds like you are doing great,BTW!
The cycling is a VERY IMPORTANT peice of info that you were missing.
I really like the looks of your tank.
Only other think i would say is IME it is Always a good idea to take advise from fish stores with a grain or two of salt. There Are greeat employees out there. However, It is astounding to me how common it is to get out and out Wrong info.

 

[Clurin]

First, how exactly did you lower your Ph? With the “adjustment kit”? The store’s recommendation was wrong. The only reason to lower Ph would be if you were going to breed certain kinds of fish. It is far better to have a steady Ph than a fluctuating one. You will just get a yo-yo effect with the adjustment kit and that’s far worse for your fish than leaving well enough alone.

Yes, I used the adjustment kit. Specifically, it is the Wardley Senior Deluxe PH Test Kit. It uses Sodium Biphosphate to lower the PH. As for the recommendation, here is the reason I was given:

At PH's 7.0 and below, ammonia is more likely to be in the NH3+ form, as opposed to NH4 at PH 7.0+. I was told that the first form is less harmful to the fish and would make the cycling process easier on them.

You need test kits for ammonia and nitrIte. Get them now. Your tank is not cycled, you will have to be doing mega-water changes, daily, as soon as you start registering ammonia.

Makes sense. The store had said I wouldn't need them right away, but I can definitely see this point and will get the test kits after work tomorrow.

You state “Also, when it comes time in 30-40 days to add some more fish” – you can’t add more fish on a timeframe like this if your tank is not cycled and that will probably take a lot longer than 30-40 days. Get the aforementioned test kits for ammonia and nitrIte. Read about cycling in the ‘sticky’ at the top of the page. Make sure you understand what it is.

30-40 days was more of a number I was tossing out for when the cycle would be complete. I have read some websites and have a book or two as well that basically gave that timeframe for the cycle to be complete (but advised that you need to be sure of that as well).

^ totally right. you have started out with way to many starter fish and you need to understand the meaning of cycle A.S.A.P!

:sad: I went with that number of fish based on websites, a book, and the store. What would a better number have been? I should be okay as long as I change the water frequently, right?

Thanks for your answers. I hope I don't come across as confrontational in my first responses. I just wanted to give you more background on why I did what I did. =)

Edit: spelling mistake that was bothering me. =)

 

[bubbles42151]

sorry i wasn't putting down your decision but if you have a reason on doing what you did that is fine. it was good that you researched before you started. if you keep up with your water changes you should be fine. if you can though, look for this stuff called biospira its great stuff it is a basically a live bacteria culture that can boost the cycle alot! it can have your tank cycled in less than a week! it's great stuff. although with that many fish in your tank you might still have to do back to back water changes for a few days to help the bacteria out. as with the starter fish back when i first started out i uesed 4 starter fish for a 29 gallon and that totally bombed and everyone died so i recommend starting another culture from a healthy used tank and a fishless cycle. if you need more info on that their should be somone around here that can help with the link to that thread. hope everything goes okay. i remember how frustrating it was when i first started out. just stay with it. Good Luck!

 

[bubbles42151]

bio spira

http://www.fishstoretn.com/bio_spira.html

 

[Clurin]

Okay, for my trip to the store tomorrow, I gather I need the following items:

Ammonia Test Kit
Nitrite Test Kit
Bio-Spira, if available, else via the link from bubbles.

I have been thinking of getting the Python system for doing my water changes. Is this a worthwhile product? How do you handle the dechlorinator (they gave me AmQuel, btw) while using the Python? Put in the AmQuel as I am refilling the tank?

One more thing: When I said 7.4+ PH from my tap water, I mean it's at least 7.4 - the test kit I have only gives readings in the 6.2 - 7.4 range, so the PH of my tap water may actually be somewhere between 7.5 and 7.8 (it took 2 rounds of using the Sodium Biphosphate before I could recognize a change (and that brought it to 7.0 - 7.2).

 

[Larissa]

When I said 7.4+ PH from my tap water, I mean it's at least 7.4 - the test kit I have only gives readings in the 6.2 - 7.4 range, so the PH of my tap water may actually be somewhere between 7.5 and 7.8 (it took 2 rounds of using the Sodium Biphosphate before I could recognize a change (and that brought it to 7.0 - 7.2).[/QUOTE]
You can get a high pH test if you want. Even at that level though it still should be fine. Amquel is a very good conditioner IMO but it's not cheap. Prime does the same stuff and is cheaper. If you get a python, add conditioner to the tank first. Throw that pH adjuster away, if there ever comes a time when you should tinker with pH, chemicals are not the way to go.

 

[kveeti]

And a word of caution. Make sure it's Bio Spira (would be in a refrigerated section, not on the shelf). Don't let the fish store talk you into buying a product named "Cycle" or other similar product. They don't work.

Re pH: The adjusters won’t keep your tank pH constant, you’ll still have to monitor and adjust frequently, and the swings will affect your fish. Add to that the problem of adjusting pH of new water to match while doing many large scale water changes – as is necessary when cycling with fish – makes it all that much more difficult.

The booklet I have with my ammonia test kit says ammonia “should not exceed 1.2 mg/L”. Even at a low pH, where their handy little chart is 'in the green', I personally would not let it get this high. I would do a water change as soon as it registered the lowest couple readings (0.1 and 0.3 on my chart) and therefore the higher pH reading is a moot point. If there is ANY detectable ammonia there is more than the bacteria can currently process, the cycle will continue, water changes will not slow it down.