Newbie to plants, need some advice
- Thread starter Andy16
- Start date
Andy16, I just picked this up a few days ago, C02 Natural Plant System from the company Nutrafin. Here is a web site with some info on it http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/ac...ystems_155.html . Mine seems to be running pretty smoothly and it is a cheap way to go C02 at just $29.99. I got mine at my local Petland.
Does anybody have any more input on the whole lighting thing??
Does anybody have any more input on the whole lighting thing??
Whether you go DIY or pressurized, you'll need a source of CO2. A tank or a generator. These tend to release bubbles of CO2.
For DIY most folks use old soda(/pop) bottles. These were designed to hold a carbonated liquid under pressure! (Ideal for our purposes…) If you go to the krib you can find the inevitable story about the bottle that blew, but I don't think it happens all that often. Airstones getting clogged with bacteria seem to be a culprit. A snail getting in the line? Is the snail stronger than the bottle? I have seen every now and then plans for a blowoff valve… might be good for peace of mind.
A CO2 tank is a pretty sturdy affair and shouldn't give you any trouble unless you manage to drop it or knock it over and snap the neck. Very bad.
(I've never heard a single report of Excel exploding).
Once you bring those bubbles over into the tank they'll float to the top and disappear into the air… not what we want. When I tried an airstone I found that it made smaller bubbles that then floated to the top and disappeared into the air. Since more smaller bubbles have a much larger surface area than one big bubble more CO2 was able to diffuse into the water on the way up, but not real efficient. Unhappy with that, I stuck the gasline into the intake on my HOB. The impeller blades smash the bubbles into a mist, but right near the surface and in an area of turbulence. Its supposed to be better than an airstone, but not as good as a reactor. The CO2 is piped into a chamber where its forced to mix with water for a good long while before it has a chance of making it to the surface. There are a handful of ways of doing this, all out there somewhere.
AH Supply is a great place to go if you're interested in setting up DIY Compact Flourescent lights. CF light is about as efficient as Normal Output (NO) flourescent on a watt for watt basis, but you can get a lot more watts out of the same size bulb (its compact). The 55w CF bulb is just under 24" and should fit on a 20g. The 36w is just under 18" and should fit on a 10. Lots of light.
Flourish, Flourish Iron, and Excel I bought from my LFS. All are easy to find online. NuSalt at the supermarket, Spectracide Stump Remover (make sure it mentions Nitrate on the label) at Lowe's, Fleet at the pharmacy (it's a pre-mixed enema solution… Seachem also sells a Phosphate solution for the faint of heart).
Its not hard, it just takes some time and can be frustrating until you get the hang of it. Now that I've seen what I can do I can't imagine not having a planted tank. But thats several months and several hundred bucks down the road.
Low light will restrict your selection somewhat, but not terribly. I think the WetMan keeps low light tanks where he relies on tap water, the fish, and leftover fish food to provide most of his ferts. Occosionally doses a little NuSalt. Its cheaper to get started and its harder to lose control of it while you're learning (most of my original plants were destroyed during a several month long battle with algae), but you won't get booming growth and I think in the long run it may take even more finesse to be successful… learning still required…
HTH
edit:
I started with 2.6 wpg and have never run low light -- I'd take DJLen's word for the bottom end… he knows his plants.
For DIY most folks use old soda(/pop) bottles. These were designed to hold a carbonated liquid under pressure! (Ideal for our purposes…) If you go to the krib you can find the inevitable story about the bottle that blew, but I don't think it happens all that often. Airstones getting clogged with bacteria seem to be a culprit. A snail getting in the line? Is the snail stronger than the bottle? I have seen every now and then plans for a blowoff valve… might be good for peace of mind.
A CO2 tank is a pretty sturdy affair and shouldn't give you any trouble unless you manage to drop it or knock it over and snap the neck. Very bad.
(I've never heard a single report of Excel exploding).
Once you bring those bubbles over into the tank they'll float to the top and disappear into the air… not what we want. When I tried an airstone I found that it made smaller bubbles that then floated to the top and disappeared into the air. Since more smaller bubbles have a much larger surface area than one big bubble more CO2 was able to diffuse into the water on the way up, but not real efficient. Unhappy with that, I stuck the gasline into the intake on my HOB. The impeller blades smash the bubbles into a mist, but right near the surface and in an area of turbulence. Its supposed to be better than an airstone, but not as good as a reactor. The CO2 is piped into a chamber where its forced to mix with water for a good long while before it has a chance of making it to the surface. There are a handful of ways of doing this, all out there somewhere.
AH Supply is a great place to go if you're interested in setting up DIY Compact Flourescent lights. CF light is about as efficient as Normal Output (NO) flourescent on a watt for watt basis, but you can get a lot more watts out of the same size bulb (its compact). The 55w CF bulb is just under 24" and should fit on a 20g. The 36w is just under 18" and should fit on a 10. Lots of light.
Flourish, Flourish Iron, and Excel I bought from my LFS. All are easy to find online. NuSalt at the supermarket, Spectracide Stump Remover (make sure it mentions Nitrate on the label) at Lowe's, Fleet at the pharmacy (it's a pre-mixed enema solution… Seachem also sells a Phosphate solution for the faint of heart).
Its not hard, it just takes some time and can be frustrating until you get the hang of it. Now that I've seen what I can do I can't imagine not having a planted tank. But thats several months and several hundred bucks down the road.
Low light will restrict your selection somewhat, but not terribly. I think the WetMan keeps low light tanks where he relies on tap water, the fish, and leftover fish food to provide most of his ferts. Occosionally doses a little NuSalt. Its cheaper to get started and its harder to lose control of it while you're learning (most of my original plants were destroyed during a several month long battle with algae), but you won't get booming growth and I think in the long run it may take even more finesse to be successful… learning still required…
HTH
edit:
I started with 2.6 wpg and have never run low light -- I'd take DJLen's word for the bottom end… he knows his plants.
Last edited:
I think ill but as much co2 stuff as i can afford, so i dont make a mistake and waste all my money going the diy way. I have a feeling people are getting frustrated with me by now but i am still having trouble with all this I understand a reef tank more then i understand this. I was wondering if i could plant my tank with some plants taht dont need co2 or fertilizers so i have some influence and so i can understand this better. Im more a hands on type or person, so if i saw all the diy co2 reactors and generators, i could understand them.
another quesiton i have is how do you test for the trace elements, co2 , and ferts?
I understand a reef tank more then i understand this. I was wondering if i could plant my tank with some plants taht dont need co2 or fertilizers so i have some influence and so i can understand this better. Im more a hands on type or person, so if i saw all the diy co2 reactors and generators, i could understand them. another quesiton i have is how do you test for the trace elements, co2 , and ferts?
There are no plants that don't need CO2, nutrients, and light. There are plant setups that don't need nutrients and CO2 added to them on a regular basis (they still need light, but not as much). I'm sure you can see where this is going… start with a low light tank. The important thing here is to keep an eye on how everything links together.
Add a second bulb… see if you can retrofit it into you're existing hood. See if you can work out a way to do it inexpensively (we'll assume its temporary). Get some low light plants. Crypts and java fern come to mind. Anubias, hornwort, elodea. They're all pretty available. Leave the CO2 alone for the time being. Get some Excel and dose a little when you feed the fish. Feed the fish a little bit extra. The Excel will provide some carbon in a form available to the plants. The fish will produce nitrates and ammonia -- the plants will use this for nitrogen. The fish food has some phosphates in it. You're tapwater will have these things as well. Maybe try dosing a little flourish once a week. Your plants won't be growing that fast because there isn't that much light or CO2, so they won't need all that much as far as nutrients go.
Read up on things and follow some of the threads to see what problems others are having. It'll start to become clear after a bit. Post here when you start to have a problem or feel frustrated. Put a little away for the investments in big hardware.
When you decide you've got a handle on the basics and you're ready to go all out you'll need to address all three areas at once. You can start with a DIY CO2 rig. If you're looking into canisters (saw other thread) its fairly easy to make a reactor and you'll still need it if you decide to go pressurized. You can install an AH kit into your existing hood or build/buy a canopy for it. You could install a 36w kit now and you'd still be at low light. Later on you could add a second if you want to go high light, or add back the NO light for moderate.
Once you get past about 2 wpg you'll have gotten yourself into a situation where the plants will want to grow. They'll start running through nutrients faster than the fish and the water changes can replace them. So you'll start adding more fertilizers to try and keep up but now the plants can't get enough carbon so they're still limited and they're leaving nutrients around because they can't utilize them as efficiently as the algae can. And the algae will. And it'll start to grow on the leaves and the plants won't be able to benefit from your very nice lights and they'll start to die leaving more and more nutrients available for the dreaded algae that have by now completely covered over every rock and every plant and needs to be scraped off the glass twice a week and you'll be as unhappy as I was when it happened to me.
And then you'll either get fed up and go back to fish only or you'll figure out where you've let the system go out of balance and you'll fix it. You need to have the right levels of all 3 -- light, CO2, nutrients -- at the same time. Increasing one means increasing all. Keeping them balanced is tricky.
And if you need help sorting it out, then there are plenty of folks out here who'll be happy to chime in.
And a CO2 reactor can either be inline (with a canister) or not, with a powerhead. But you'd already have seen stuff like that if you'd read that nice article on DIY CO2 that was linked above. You cannot avoid reading. Its all out there if you want it.
Add a second bulb… see if you can retrofit it into you're existing hood. See if you can work out a way to do it inexpensively (we'll assume its temporary). Get some low light plants. Crypts and java fern come to mind. Anubias, hornwort, elodea. They're all pretty available. Leave the CO2 alone for the time being. Get some Excel and dose a little when you feed the fish. Feed the fish a little bit extra. The Excel will provide some carbon in a form available to the plants. The fish will produce nitrates and ammonia -- the plants will use this for nitrogen. The fish food has some phosphates in it. You're tapwater will have these things as well. Maybe try dosing a little flourish once a week. Your plants won't be growing that fast because there isn't that much light or CO2, so they won't need all that much as far as nutrients go.
Read up on things and follow some of the threads to see what problems others are having. It'll start to become clear after a bit. Post here when you start to have a problem or feel frustrated. Put a little away for the investments in big hardware.
When you decide you've got a handle on the basics and you're ready to go all out you'll need to address all three areas at once. You can start with a DIY CO2 rig. If you're looking into canisters (saw other thread) its fairly easy to make a reactor and you'll still need it if you decide to go pressurized. You can install an AH kit into your existing hood or build/buy a canopy for it. You could install a 36w kit now and you'd still be at low light. Later on you could add a second if you want to go high light, or add back the NO light for moderate.
Once you get past about 2 wpg you'll have gotten yourself into a situation where the plants will want to grow. They'll start running through nutrients faster than the fish and the water changes can replace them. So you'll start adding more fertilizers to try and keep up but now the plants can't get enough carbon so they're still limited and they're leaving nutrients around because they can't utilize them as efficiently as the algae can. And the algae will. And it'll start to grow on the leaves and the plants won't be able to benefit from your very nice lights and they'll start to die leaving more and more nutrients available for the dreaded algae that have by now completely covered over every rock and every plant and needs to be scraped off the glass twice a week and you'll be as unhappy as I was when it happened to me.
And then you'll either get fed up and go back to fish only or you'll figure out where you've let the system go out of balance and you'll fix it. You need to have the right levels of all 3 -- light, CO2, nutrients -- at the same time. Increasing one means increasing all. Keeping them balanced is tricky.
And if you need help sorting it out, then there are plenty of folks out here who'll be happy to chime in.
And a CO2 reactor can either be inline (with a canister) or not, with a powerhead. But you'd already have seen stuff like that if you'd read that nice article on DIY CO2 that was linked above. You cannot avoid reading. Its all out there if you want it.
