Not a newbie, but bettas keep dying!

My first and most instantaneous thought upon reading this was the pH. Bettas come from very soft acidic waters and in hatcheries are often born in water with a low pH and supplements like blackwater extract and almond leaf to keep the water soft. I'm thinking it's either lack of acclimation, or your pH is just plain too high. for your next betta, lower the pH to around 6.5 or 7 and see how it fares.
 
Kyohti, I was thinking the same thing. I did a little on-line research and found quite a few pages of people whose PH was 8.2 and their bettas did fine.
But I'm inclined to agree that my PH 8 isn't optimal. It seems that my bettas just seem to progressively 'fade away' and the water (although super clean) is the only thing I can think of too.

I'm afraid to mess around with PH due to swings, but I suppose it may be my only choice if I want to continue with bettas. Or I guess I'll have to stick with guppies and endlers...
 
As for the hardiness of bettas, it's sort of here and there. Bettas started out as a very very hard-to-kill kind of species. They were touch because the environment they live in was tough. Even today, bettas should be hardier and spunkier, even despite their fancy colors and love delicate finnage. But they do have their drawbacks (compare today's betta to wild bettas like you would compare fancy goldfish to comets or carp... or delta-fancy guppies to endlers in terms of the change in hardiness).

The biggest culprit of their fragility these days is probably inbreeding. In fact, just the other day I bought a beautiful male specimen direct from Thailand. The gentleman offered me a female to breed to him in the offer. I inquired deeper into the matter, being that I've bred bettas in the past and would definitely consider breeding this particular male, only to discover the females he was selling me were his own sisters. I passed.

Inbreeding is to the detriment of ANY species, be they dog, cat, fish, whatever. Extended inbreeding would result in a weakened immune system, cancers, tumors, internal problems of all sorts, and a shortened life expectancy. It also causes bodily deformities, but those bettas are probably culled well before they ship to market. So bettas, like all pets in petshops, are a 'you get what you pay for' kind of scenario.

Sometimes that dachsund puppy you buy is a fine specimen. Other times, he's riddled with genetic deficiencies or wasn't as purebred as you were made to believe. The same can occur with fish stock.

If you want a hardier betta, better to invest in buying direct from a breeder, They tend to be larger, hardier, and an overall 'better' fish.
 
bettas are pretty tough fish and will do fine in a pH of 8. i think that it still has to do with the pH of the water (well the one that lasted only a couple of days). the pH in those cups can fall as the minerals and such are used up in the water and not reaplaced, and the pH shock couldve done them in.

as for the other two that lasted only months/a year, they were probably a bit lower quality and inbred as a result like kyohti stated
 
Ms.Bubbles said:
Kyohti, I was thinking the same thing. I did a little on-line research and found quite a few pages of people whose PH was 8.2 and their bettas did fine.
But I'm inclined to agree that my PH 8 isn't optimal. It seems that my bettas just seem to progressively 'fade away' and the water (although super clean) is the only thing I can think of too.

I'm afraid to mess around with PH due to swings, but I suppose it may be my only choice if I want to continue with bettas. Or I guess I'll have to stick with guppies and endlers...
Click to expand...

Yes, but 'do fine' is such a broad term. A fish can be swimming around and people think it is 'fine'. But like I said in my previous post, it could simply be the quality of fish as well. There's a lot of variables, but if this helps, adding a small amount of driftwood can assist in keeping the water soft and help buffer against pH swings.

Honestly, bettas can tolerate fluctuations like that. They come from areas of Thailand and southeast asia where monsoon rains, flooding, and drought cause pH, temp, and other variables to fluctuate seasonally. It is this same reason that they can handle being without filtration, as those areas are often partially stagnated marshes and rice paddies. Afterall, that is the reason they even developed labrynth organs, right?

But I've seen many instances where prolonged exposure to things such as high pH, low temperatures, or high ammonia levels cause the fish to 'waste away' in a slow death much like you have described. I've kept over 20 bettas at one time, and had them and researched them since I was quite young and my mother bought me my first betta at age 11. I've kept them in community tanks, in heated and unheated, filtered and unfiltered spaces. They are quite adaptable if you have good quality fish to begin with (again, I refer to my above post) and mine even traveled the country at least twice a year with me during my teen years.

I don't buy that they are as fragile as people make them out to be because I've seen and know better and can testify against that idea. Don't give up on them so quickly. They are spectacular animals to keep. Very personable and an absolute joy once you get the hang of keeping after them.
 
what kind of bettas are they Male or Female? I have bought many of rescued cup bettas all female and are still living. My sole Male betta that was all messed up to begin with did bad and dies 2 weeks later. I would test your tap and post your results, I would also test for copper. Maybe drop them into a bigger tank?
 
SHK--yep these are male bettas I'm talking about. The first betta I housed in a 3g tank, then moved him to a 5g, then a 10g because, like you, I thought bigger would be better. He did last 6 months longer than the 2.5g betta, so maybe it helped...

I have no knowledge of copper or its' effects, so I'll need to look into that...


Kyohti, regarding driftwood & lowered PH, I'm not so sure it helps. I've got a couple of pieces in a 5g tank and I tested the PH against a non-driftwood tank and they were exactly the same PH. Perhaps really huge pieces of driftwood would make a difference.
 
Either that, or the tanins were already leeched out of the smaller pieces. The amount of pH fluctuation depends on how much tannic acid the piece of woo has within it to be released. With smaller pieces, I imagine a lot of the tannin would be removed just in curing the wood. You're probably right about that.

Tank size really shouldn't matter too much. When I was traveling a lot as a kid in a broken home, I had to keep my 20+ bettas in 3x3x8 lidded acrylic cubes. They all lived to be at least 4 years or more before passing and all of them were colorful, alert, personable fishes who never exhibited any negative signs from how I had to house them unless I got behind on my water changes (which I tried hard not to do). I refuse to think my methods of keeping them were anything but correct.

Of all those bettas and all those years, I only ever had issue with fin rot twice, the only fin damage came from breeding them, and there were never any other diseases or parasites present in them either. I fed mine a varied diet and they were all but spoiled by my sister and myself.

So my train of thought with bettas is that you honestly can house them in just about anything as long as the water depth is at least 4-6 inches... but you have to be willing to commit to the level of involvement they will need in order to thrive in those conditions. Because a betta in a quart-size vase will need more attention, maintenance and care to be as vital as a betta kept in a 5-gallon gently filtered and heated tank.
 
I agree that tank size is not the issue here.
Kyohti, if I'm understanding correctly, you are recommending:

1. Purchase betta from a breeder if possible (not sure where to find in Toronto, Canada though)

2. Use a product to lower PH level.


Tank size/heater/filter optional?
 
Ms.Bubbles said:
I agree that tank size is not the issue here.
Kyohti, if I'm understanding correctly, you are recommending:

1. Purchase betta from a breeder if possible (not sure where to find in Toronto, Canada though)

2. Use a product to lower PH level.


Tank size/heater/filter optional?
Click to expand...

There are plenty of breeders that you can research online here in the Us/Canada. Heck, www.aquabid.com is a great place to find lovely bettas. Just make sure they aren't from another country, as the shipping gets horribly expensive.

Yes, use a product to lower your pH and soften your water. I suggest blackwater extract. Use about 1/4 teaspoon per 5 gallons of water along with a good water conditioner or dechlorinator. This stuff is what I used to maintain my bettas in top breeding condition. They can live without it... but it might help.

Tank size/heater/filter optional? To an extent... a good tank size for a betta should allow for no less than 4-6 inch water depth and should hold at least a quart or more of water. I suggest something in the one gallon size, simply because it makes evaporation less of a threat to your betta. I also advise that whatever the betta is housed in have a lid. Bettas can jump without warning and if left too long out of water cannot recover (though they are quite a bit more resilient than your average fish!)

I personally am shipping a betta in from Thailand (I have a thread about it) and I've bought a 5-gallon minibow setup to house him in. I consider this rather extravagant for just one betta... but I'm going by a theme and my local store wouldn't stock the smaller tanks in the color I wanted... that, and I intend to plant the tank and wanted sufficient room for them to grow so I can propagate them and then plant my 10-gallon.

So any size can work... it just depends on personal preference and funds available. Bettas are highly adaptable and can live happily in smaller quarters if need be. As for heating, bettas prefer a tropical temperature that is around or over 78F. If the ambient room temperature the betta is kept in isn't at least in the low to mid 70s, it's probably not sufficient and a heater should be installed. My stepmom kept our house at a constant temperature of 65F!!! I went outside regularly just to THAW. O__O;; If you have a similar thermostat for some or most of the year, then a heater would be necessary.

The filter is the least of necessities with the lone betta. Bettas and other anabantoids adapted labrynth organs to evade larger predators that needed oxygen-rich waters to thrive. By adapting to conditions their predators found suffocating, bettas were able to survive in their native habitats. Southeast asia experiences a lot of variances in water level from wet season to dry season. Their home could be 4 foot deep in some areas, or as shallow as 8 inches in others, and this could flood or drain away as the seasons come and go. This is also why bettas are so adaptable. Their water could be nothing more than a stangnant puddle and then expand radically overnight due to monsoon rains into a 3-6 foot deep channel!! This is also why bettas prefer slow-moving waters. Not only is this because of the labor of swimming with those trailing fins, but also because their environment is composed of still, nearly stagnant rice paddies and marshes that don't see heavy water currents. The only real benefit of having a filter is that of the pet owner, who doesn't have to worry about water changes as much.

The ease of assuring water quality, and the option of adding non-labrynth fishes to the aquarium the betta is in are the only real reasons I've ever seen for filtering a betta's water.
 
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